Radical Common Sense with David Bowers

Series Premiere Open

David Bowers  00:00

Welcome to Radical Common Sense, a masterclass in faith-based development. I'm your host, David Bowers. This is where faith meets action and community power becomes real solutions.

David Bowers  00:12

We turn principles into blueprints and show how faith institutions can transform what they already have into what communities truly need. Since launching Enterprise Community Partners' Faith-Based Development Initiative in 2006, the vision has been clear: partner with the faith community to expand housing and community facilities that serve low- and moderate-income communities, support equitable procurement, strengthen neighborhood anchor institutions, and help nurture a national movement far bigger than any one organization.

David Bowers  00:43

Because the opportunity is massive: houses of worship across America own an estimated 2.6 million acres of land — enough to potentially create over 800,000 new homes. Red state, blue state, purple state; urban, suburban, and rural. And yet the need is just as urgent. More than 700,000 Americans are homeless. One in five renters pay more than half of what they make on rent.

David Bowers  01:08

Nineteen million people live in food deserts, and half of Americans live in childcare deserts. At the same time, between 2015 and 2030, an estimated 100,000 houses of worship may close. Need meets opportunity — this is what I call radical common sense. Radical, because it's bold — it goes to the root. And common sense, because what is necessary is staring us in the face.

David Bowers  01:34

As my late father used to say, "surely we can do better than this." This is about scaling real solutions with the faith community as essential partners — not theory, but action. This is Radical Common Sense: a masterclass in faith-based development.

Introduction

David Bowers  02:22

Today we begin at the foundation: the moral case for housing. The question is simple but profound — what happens when faith communities see housing and impact beyond their walls not just as charity, but as a calling? Is there a moral and theological imperative for houses of worship to consider how they may activate the land they steward for broader community impact?

David Bowers  02:44

I'm honored to be joined by three leaders who are helping shape this conversation across the country. Reverend William Lamar, pastor of Metropolitan AME Church in Washington, D.C., is a leading voice on faith, justice, and community building. A participant in Enterprise's Faith-Based Development Initiative, he's leading an effort to transform underused church land into housing with wraparound services for unhoused veterans, providing them with support, stability, and dignity.

David Bowers  03:15

Reverend Dr. Howard John Wesley, pastor of Alfred Street Baptist Church in Alexandria, Virginia, is an internationally recognized leader in ministry and economic empowerment. His church is developing a four-story community with new affordable homes in Old Town Alexandria, while also helping pay rental arrears for more than 450 families — helping them avoid eviction through its SEEK fast initiative during the Lenten season.

David Bowers  03:47

And joining us remotely, Reverend Jasmine Smothers, senior pastor of Atlanta First United Methodist Church, recognized as a leader at the intersection of faith, policy, and social impact. After challenging her congregation to think big, the church is endeavoring to transform downtown land into a 20-story residential tower — turning sacred land into sacred housing. Welcome to the show.

Framing the Moral Imperative

David Bowers  04:24

As the country grapples with a worsening housing crisis, we're seeing more and more faith communities ask how they can respond. A question for us today: how do we move this conversation — about housing and community development for the faith community — beyond something that's nice to consider, to something we must consider? Our call to consider.

David Bowers  04:47

Reverend Smothers, I want to start with you. When you think about housing through a faith lens, what teachings or principles come to mind? Are there biblical groundings that inform how you approach this work?

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  05:02

Absolutely. As people of faith, we start with the biblical underpinnings. For us in Atlanta, at Atlanta First, we started in Jeremiah 29. Most people of faith know Jeremiah 29:11 — "I know the plans I have for you" — but there are instructions that come before we get to the plans God has for us. Those instructions include Jeremiah 29:7: seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare.

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  05:46

This is an important and critical underpinning when we think about housing through faith, because if we don't help house people, we are derelict in our duty — we can't even bring people anywhere near abundant life. Housing is the critical foundation for folks to begin to think about the abundant life that Jesus Christ has given us.

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  06:14

We found people sleeping on the steps of our church in downtown Atlanta. We lost some folks while they were sleeping — to violence, or to medical conditions that went unattended. We understood we had to do something more — that gift cards and groceries weren't enough, that keeping the utilities on wasn't enough.

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  06:46

Because in the state of Georgia, if you're evicted, you can't qualify for low-income housing for several years. So we knew we had to get in the middle of this — for people to experience their own welfare, for the church to experience its own welfare, and for the entire community to be transformed so it can experience abundant life.

David Bowers  07:13

Dr. Wesley, picking up on Reverend Smothers — it almost sounds like the healing at the Gate called Beautiful: folks coming in and out of worship, but stepping over folks who are in need. When you thought about the work at Alfred Street, what was the moral and biblical grounding you reached into to lead the church toward this?

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  07:37

Yeah, I think there are two things that push in that direction. One is just our understanding that this is justice work — we don't gather as a church family just to praise and sing "Amazing Grace" and pray and walk out. Howard Thurman once said that the power of prayer is directly connected to your willingness to be part of God's answer.

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  07:58

So whatever we're praying about, we have to avail ourselves to get involved — it's part of our witness to the world. And once people understand that a relationship with the Lord isn't just about personal piety, but about impacting the world for Christ, it becomes an easy push for us as a church. Once the opportunity's there, the heart's already molded and motivated to seize it, because we have a chance to really make a difference — even if it's just in one person's life.

David Bowers  08:30

Reverend Lamar, you and the church at Metropolitan, in the heart of Washington, D.C., are looking to build housing for unhoused veterans. When you kicked off this initiative, did you have to do a lot of teaching? Thinking about what Dr. Wesley said about justice — how did that play into going beyond charity into a justice calling as you led the church into this?

Rev. William Lamar  09:00

Two things. First, theologians and those who look critically at the text remind us that the word we translate as "salvation" might be better translated as "liberation" or "community safety." So when we think about the work of housing, it is the work of salvation. This isn't something that begins in the by-and-by — it is now. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth. For Metropolitan, reaching into our vast historical resources — troops for the Civil War were mustered from one of the congregations that became Metropolitan.

Rev. William Lamar  09:39

So we've always believed in what freedom could look like for us and for all, and liberation and salvation include safe housing that lifts up the dignity of all human beings. Because we're in the shadow of the White House, you've got this amazing opulence and crippling poverty in the same space, and we're called not just to observe it, but to do something about it.

David Bowers  10:01

I want to stay there a minute — that notion of congregations existing in the midst of a sea of need. Reverend Smothers, picking back up with Atlanta: did you have much resistance from the congregation when you were teaching this — folks saying, "this isn't what the church is called to do"? If so, how did you teach around that, tapping into the biblical and moral calling for the church?

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  10:40

I expected more resistance than I experienced. We started with teaching on vision, before we even reached the point of saying the vision was affordable housing, and the congregation was well able to grow into that understanding — that it was time to do something different.

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  11:06

Atlanta First is the first Protestant congregation in Atlanta — it helped launch every other Protestant congregation in the city. If you're familiar with Margaret Mitchell and Gone with the Wind , this is Margaret Mitchell's home church. Grady Hospital, Sheltering Arms, the Midtown Assistance Center — all huge justice organizations in Atlanta have come out of Atlanta First United Methodist Church. We have the only bell that Sherman didn't burn when he burned Atlanta. And we housed Confederate soldiers at First Methodist. So it was part of our DNA, but it was also time for the church to shift its vision and the way it was doing the work of ministry.

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  11:56

We did several sermon series on vision — "Write the vision, make it plain," and "if the vision is delayed, just wait for it, because it is to come." The congregation was really on board with doing something different. We didn't know it would be affordable housing until the close of that sermon series, when people were asked to be in deep prayer about the next steps, and over and over the responses we got were: housing, housing, housing.

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  12:36

Nobody else can die here. Atlanta used to be one of the most affordable cities to live in — it is not now, it's one of the most unaffordable. And here we are sitting at the intersection of downtown and Midtown Atlanta with 2.8 acres. What better place to give people a place to live, a place to work, a place to go to school — right on the MARTA line, our public transportation, at a time when the need has never been greater.

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  13:14

Questions have come, and so we keep going back to the scriptures. If we put the Old and New Testament together and take the word "righteousness" — like Dr. Lamar said — and translate it the way it's supposed to be, which is "justice," what we come up with is that God really cares about justice, because justice becomes the most stated word in the biblical text. So we've done a lot of teaching and learning about what it means to be the church for such a time as this.

David Bowers  13:55

Dr. Wesley, picking up on that notion of vision, and of what home means in the biblical tradition — across faith traditions, what is that vision of home, and how does it inform the calling of the church to get involved?

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  14:21

Clearly, home being the center for family — that's the first place of learning, of the development of faith. But it's about expanding that: home isn't just the Huxtables — Cliff and Clair — sitting around the dinner table. They have to have a dinner table. They have to have a home. They have to have a roof over their head. When we talk about growing families and the ethics we teach at dinner tables, it begins by creating a space where that can actually happen.

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  14:55

Home can't simply be church. But if what we're preaching and living in the sanctuary doesn't have a dinner table where it's passed on — where mothers, fathers, children, friends, and family gather — it can't stop at the door of the church. It has to flow into another space, and that space is home: a physical space, an actual building, an actual roof over someone's head. If we're not creating those spaces, then everything we're doing in the church is really in vain, because it stops at the church door if there's nowhere for it to land on the table.

The Radical Common Sense of Land

David Bowers  15:37

Reverend Lamar, on the notion of home for homeless veterans — when you've had conversations with the community beyond the walls of the church, what has that been like, in terms of why the church feels compelled to do this work?

Rev. William Lamar  16:15

The first thing I'd say is we have to change the notion of what home is, away from a kind of capitalist notion — that I am building or buying something for me. It has to be more communal. If you read Hebrews, it says that Jesus and others labored for a city, not a house. And the culmination of the text, in Revelation, speaks of a new Jerusalem — a new city, a place where all persons, all tongues, all nations can dwell.

Rev. William Lamar  16:52

So how does that work with veterans housing? You have to lift your vision beyond what's best for your nuclear family. There were times — for the Smothers, the Wesleys, the Lamars — when we lived multigenerationally. One house might have contained ten to fifteen people. You probably didn't want it to be that way, but that's what we did. When it comes to our veterans, they are part of our household. They belong in a space that reminds them of their dignity. America has a contract with them — serve, and we'll take care of you. We're seeing that contract shredded in our midst, and we wanted to be part of repairing it.

Rev. William Lamar  17:34

People have ideas in their minds about who veterans are. What we did is the granular work of introducing people to these human beings — learning their stories, talking to the businesses and political leaders around us. Now they're on board because they see it as our household duty. The word "economy" comes from the Greek oikonomos — the household of faith. Veterans are part of our household. They deserve dignity, and that's the extension of ministry, theology, and proclamation — as Dr. Wesley and Reverend Jasmine have said.

David Bowers  18:09

Let's transition into stewardship — stewardship of the land. We talked earlier about the estimate that faith communities own 2.6 million acres of land, potentially enough for 800,000 new homes and community facilities. Thinking about when God told Moses, "use what's in your hand," and Nehemiah's notion of the faith community being part of rebuilding the wall — talk about what stewardship means in this context, and how it can activate what's already at the faith community's disposal.

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  19:04

In any church you go to, you'll hear a message on giving. We limit stewardship to sermons pressing people about tithes, offerings, and sowing. What we teach is: you've received something from the Lord, and the Lord has an expectation of how you handle it — that's how we get motivated giving. Now, the Lord expects a portion given back. If that's what we teach our members, what better way to exemplify it than for the church itself to recognize we've been given something, and God has an expectation of how we use it.

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  19:54

If we're owning that much land, what does God expect us to do with it? What's the best use of it? How does that honor God, in a way others can witness the power of faith and love and living out our Christian principles? The same way we press our members on giving, we understood as a church, as a body, that we have an obligation to utilize what the Lord's put in our hands — this land. God's not making more land. That's where real economy is, real wealth is — in the land, and how we utilize it.

David Bowers  20:59

I'm always struck by the story of Nehemiah — the priests rebuilding the wall, the goldsmiths, the governors. It's a public-private partnership right there in the story. Reverend Lamar, picking up on what Reverend Smothers raised: the reimagining of what it means to be a body of faith in this modern context, as it relates to the stewardship of land. That old notion of a church, a mosque, a synagogue as a place people go once or twice a week — what's the calling around reimagining faith on land in this modern context?

Rev. William Lamar  22:07

Let me call on Cain Hope Felder and Dr. Gene Rice. You raise a point that makes a connection. The text tells us — and I think science affirms it, based on what happens to us after we leave these mortal coils — as Shakespeare said, we are made from dust. We are made from earth. The land is us, and we are the land we are made from. There is a holy connection, a theological connection. As Howard John and Jasmine have said — now we can use first names, we've known each other a while — stewardship of land really is the story of scripture.

Rev. William Lamar  22:57

Who has land? Who can get it? Who kills to take it or keep it? What land is promised to this group and others? That is the story of scripture, and that is the story of today — conquering, bombing, taking, moving, maneuvering. What we're called to do is preach and embody an equitable distribution of that holy resource from which human beings are created. How is it that some hoard and some have lack? It's our job to speak and wade into that breach.

Rev. William Lamar  23:41

When Jasmine quoted Jeremiah — they were exiles, taken into a city they didn't want to be in, that wasn't their ancestral city. Still, the prophet says you seek the welfare wherever you are. That becomes our work: communal welfare, seeking it, building it up. It's not that there's a lack of resource — it's a lack of the political and theological will and imagination to ensure everyone can thrive as a result of the resource.

Rev. William Lamar  24:10

The prophet tells them, in that exilic state — and I'm glad Jasmine started it there — pray for the city, seek its welfare, and build homes. There's a direct commandment to build homes while you're there. I think that carries on for us as part of our spiritual assignment: keep building homes, seeking the welfare, and the city grows, and all are prospered — in its welfare, you'll find your own.

David Bowers  24:39

Reverend Smothers, since you started us down this road — I want to come back to you on this notion of stewardship versus ownership, and the call for the faith community to be involved in something that blesses others. There's the notion of who legally holds title to land, and then there's the deeper question — whose land is it really? Sometimes that goes to Native Americans having been here before, or the notion that this is God's land, the earth is the Lord's. Has that conversation, in Atlanta and with your peers, opened eyes and changed mindsets about not clutching what you have, but using it — as Dr. Wesley said — to bless others?

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  25:49

We did have to do a lot of theological teaching on the difference between ownership and stewardship — that we are not owners, everything we have is a gift from God. Rewiring ourselves to understand stewardship as setting the table so that others might experience God, not that we own what's on the table, but that we set it to share with God's people.

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  26:34

There's a parable in the Bible where an owner hires day workers for his fields — some work all day, some work just an hour at the end of the day, and he pays them the same wage. The people who worked all day get furious that they earned the same as those who worked an hour or less. But the owner says, "We had an understanding, a contract — your daily wage was what we agreed on. I made that same agreement with others. We didn't talk about an hourly wage, we talked about a daily wage."

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  27:35

Dr. David Gushee, whose book The Moral Teachings of Jesus we're studying in one of our Bible studies, turns this parable on its head — he says it's a parable about equity, and about how everybody has to eat. Not that we all make the same thing, but that everybody eats no matter how much they worked. There's a leveling at the table of God that's countercultural to capitalism, countercultural to how we understand justice in the United States, and countercultural to how we pay and understand the difference between ownership and stewardship today. This has really challenged us as a church — what does it mean to not own something, but to be in charge of using it for its highest and best use, in a way that benefits everybody?

David Bowers  28:58

It's interesting — "highest and best use" is a phrase we hear a lot in the real estate world, but it sounds like you all have put a different spin on it. Before we go further, we need to pause for a segment we're calling "The Calling," which captures voices of the faith-based development movement in New York City.

This Is the Calling

David Bowers  29:10

Bishop R.C. Hugh Nelson led his congregation through development of the Ebenezer Urban Ministry Center, and lent his expertise to many others following in his footsteps.

Bishop R.C. Hugh Nelson  29:38

Most people forget that religious organizations are also property owners, especially in dense urban areas. We have land that's often underutilized, or just vacant. That gives religious organizations an opportunity — to sell, to lease, or to partner with developers to build housing on these properties.

Bishop R.C. Hugh Nelson  30:09

Gone are the days where pastors attach their egos to the size of their sanctuary. Instead of just building a larger sanctuary, we should build to meet a need in the community — we can do so much more in fulfilling the mission to which we believe God has called us.

Legacy in the Land

David Bowers  30:31

"Gone are the days" — that's certainly a challenge, and an invitation. Let's jump back into the conversation. I want to ask you all a question that some might consider a little controversial, but we're here for real talk: is there a particular imperative around this work for the Black church? I'm asking broadly about the faith community in general — white, Black, Latino, Asian, whatever the background — but I want to ask specifically, in the context of the United States: is there a particular imperative for the Black church?

David Bowers  31:12

Dr. Wesley, why don't we start with you?

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  31:20

Let's first make certain we're speaking about the historical Black church, not just a church filled with Black people. Historically, the Black church has justice rooted at its core — it existed to find space for the dignity and equality of Black people to worship, when they weren't welcome in white religious institutions. That's how it was born; there's justice at the core of it. C. Eric Lincoln and Lawrence Mamiya, in their book The Black Church in the African American Experience , say the Black church is the cultural womb of Black America — everything Black people were allowed to identify with was birthed out of the church: schools, newspapers, businesses, institutions.

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  32:09

So historically, at its root, there's not only a justice imperative — the church was doing educational work, journalism work, banking, financing. We couldn't go to banks for mortgages, so Black businesses were formed out of the Black church for Black consumerism. So yes, at the core of the historical Black church, there's always been that pairing. I was hearing Jasmine talk about preparing her congregation for this vision — we didn't have to do much of that. There wasn't a lot of vision-casting, because you kind of understood: this is who we are, this is what we do. We didn't even take a vote. We just said, we're going to do this — if you're not with us, we've got a church you can go to, but this is what we do, because this is who we are.

David Bowers  33:08

Reverend Lamar, let me pick up on that at the institutional level, not just congregational — predominantly Black denominations. What's the case that can be made at a denominational level that there's more we could, and should, be doing to scale this movement?

Rev. William Lamar  33:43

I'll just kick it to you straight up: most of our denominations are consumed with petty politics, petty power moves. I'm disappointed — not only in my own, but in many others. What's required of denominations is to remember this: you exist to strengthen and energize the local church, and the community around these places must be cared for. If there are visionary denominational operatives who exist for something other than the accrual of power — but in a post-denominational age, in the minds of most people who come to Alfred Street, or Metropolitan, or Atlanta First, denominations are already dead.

Rev. William Lamar  34:49

When I moved with my family in 1986 from Macon, Georgia, to Jacksonville, Florida — that's 40 years ago — we were looking for an African Methodist Episcopal church. Nobody does that anymore. They come to the city and ask, "what church is doing the work that matters to us?" and they go there. We have Pentecostals who come to Metropolitan. Jews who come to Metropolitan. People with no faith who come. I think that's true for churches everywhere. Denominations, I think, must refocus on the needs of the community — that's where we've found growth. I think it's possible, but I have to admit some skepticism.

Rev. William Lamar  35:30

I think at the core of your question is the assumption that collectively we can do more. Denominations should represent multiple congregations, so there's an opportunity to do more — but that's not what happens. So the question is: can Metropolitan and Alfred Street partner together? Can we do something? Does First have another partner outside the United Methodist Church, and are they allowed to? That's why the work you all do is so important — because if this lands singularly on local congregations who are, say, Baptist, at least you have some kind of structure. Baptists, I don't even know what that means, man — there's no real gathering structure. It comes down to the autonomy of the local church. Most churches are intimidated about stewarding land and buildings because they don't think they have the capacity or the money — they think you have to be sitting on multiple millions to do this yourself, and they don't know about developing partnerships with builders.

Rev. William Lamar  36:34

I had to learn what a tax credit was — I had no idea. But you learn these languages. That's why the work you all do is so important, so local churches aren't intimidated, thinking this apple is too big to take a bite of.

David Bowers  36:48

Reverend Smothers, this work is hard — Dr. Wesley's basically saying, look, this is necessary and it can be challenging. Talk about why it's worth it to put in the hard work, to stretch beyond the comfort zone, into unfamiliar conversations about tax credits and zoning variances — things that aren't exactly Lenten season or Passover. What is it about the legacy the faith community can leave, through stewarding land, that calls faith leaders into rougher waters than they're used to?

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  38:09

I believe we're at a critical time in the life of the church universal, where we have to have hard conversations about what the church actually is in this season. The church used to be the third place — where people hung out, ate, met people. Dr. Lamar talked about folks coming to town looking for a certain denominational church — those days are gone. So much of what the church offered is now cared for elsewhere in the community; you don't have to come to church for that. So the church has to dig into: why do I exist? What is my role? What can we uniquely do?

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  38:54

The United Methodist Church is one of the largest landowners in the country, and the world. We can uniquely transform, with the land we own, the communities where we are. Do we focus on the disease of the church, or on what can be — if the church digs into the needs of its local community, and becomes the light-bearer, the lighthouse, so the community can see what it can be? We have one of the most complex zip codes in the nation, at 360 Peachtree Street — multimillionaires and people scraping for a dollar a day, all in that one zip code, worshiping together at Atlanta First.

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  39:58

So we have to ask: what does a multiethnic, multi-socioeconomic church exist for in the South anymore? We know what the Black church exists for. We know what the white church exists for. But how do we carve out a church that has a long legacy, needs to relearn what it means to steward things well, and has a deep affection for creativity and innovation — something traditional churches haven't been: deeply active in their communities.

David Bowers  40:50

Dr. Wesley, this is a perfect segue to something Alfred Street did in early 2026 — deeply tied into the needs of the community in Alexandria, Virginia. Speak to what the church did, and why.

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  41:22

Every year we have a spiritual time of fasting we call SEEK — seeking the face of God, the voice of God, by shutting off the things that pull us away. It started years ago and has grown; this year about 40,000 people signed a covenant to join us for a 30-day prayer and fast. We believe, from the prophet Jeremiah — "when you seek my face and turn from your wicked ways, I'll hear from heaven, and I'll heal the land and forgive your sin" — that the prayerful journey isn't just to transform us, but to transform the nation around us. In these contentious days, where there's so much disdain for those who have not, we need to see a change in the land.

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  42:16

Every year at the end of the prayer journey, we lift up a sacrificial offering and dedicate it to a cause we believe changes the world. This year, during a cold front that swept through D.C., I got up one freezing morning, pushed the button on my thermostat, and the heat came on — and the Holy Spirit convicted me. So many people don't have that privilege, to just push a button and be warm, open a refrigerator and have food. So we decided we wanted to do something around homelessness and housing insecurity in our city.

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  42:54

How the Holy Spirit works — the mayor called me literally three days later. I asked her, "Madam Mayor, what's the biggest problem we have in the city right now?" She said, "You won't believe this, but we just found out 447 families are behind on their rent in affordable housing, and HUD is pushing to evict them." 447 families evicted in one fell swoop — do you know what that does to social services, to public education, when kids come to school with no home to stay in? To the crime rate? We had to do something.

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  43:38

Again, how the Holy Spirit works — the amount we raised exactly matched what those 450 families owed. So we decided: that's what we're going to do. We're clearing all of their debt. And we partnered with other churches creating financial literacy programs, so each of these families, once their debt is erased, can hopefully avoid getting there again. I'm grateful it wasn't just our church — it was the 40,000 people who joined us. We gave all that money away, and now 447 families aren't going to lose their homes.

From Charity to Community Builders

David Bowers  44:12

It's fascinating to think about a community of faith deciding — as Reverend Smothers said — to look at the need in the community, and use what's in its hand, in this case dollars, and target it that directly. Beyond building housing, you're also providing for housing security needs directly. Reverend Lamar, that's a good segue to you — this notion of the faith community moving from charity to community builders and developers, including charity but going beyond it, and connecting with other houses of worship to ask, what can we do together?

Rev. William Lamar  45:21

I can't remember who said it, but my colleagues here will have heard this: "When I feed hungry people or clothe the naked, they call me a saint. But when I ask why people are hungry and naked, they call me a socialist." Here's the problem: the church has allowed others to set our agenda. Instead of fundamentally transforming the systems that create a lack of housing, food, safety, and education, we become people who put Band-Aids on those systems instead of asking the further upstream question.

Rev. William Lamar  46:02

What Dr. Wesley has proven is that there are resources to meet the need right now. We have to have a bigger conversation about why so few are hoarding so much in this nation — why a precious number of billionaires own more than half the economic productivity of the United States. We have to ask these questions, because the text demands it. Why do we translate the word that should be "justice" as "righteousness"? Why would "salvation" better be rendered as "liberation," but we call it salvation? Playing with words and concepts plays with people's lives. The spirit is speaking not just to Howard John Wesley when he presses that button, but to senators and executives too — the question is how those people allow the spirit to move in them ethically.

Rev. William Lamar  47:07

Those of us who care about not just tending to the victims of our systems, but transforming them, have to build the power to push our leaders to do something more radical, more human, more beautiful, more just.

David Bowers  47:31

A question about the church — I'm using "church" as a stand-in for faith communities writ large, whatever they may be. How can the faith community stay true to its mission when it has to partner with folks who may not share that same grounding?

David Bowers  47:52

Nehemiah had to deal with the king — the billionaire, so to speak. When you're developing housing or community facilities, or engaging the mayor, you have to engage with folks who may not share similar moral grounding, similar faith beliefs. Reverend Smothers, when you're getting into this space, how do you make sure the faith community stays true to its mission while working with people who may not be of the same ilk? Do you ever say, "we're not going to work with you, we'll find those who will"?

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  48:40

In my experience, you have to believe God — because partners outside the church will say the vision is too big, that it's impossible, that churches can't do things like this, that they don't want to work with churches because there are so many voices at the table in faith communities. The church's role is to keep the vision — to push back when they say it's impossible, when they say it's too big, when they say it's going to take what we call our "project lasagna" funding, because there are so many layers and so many partners in this kind of project.

Rev. Jasmine Smothers  49:31

When they say, "we've never done anything like this," you say, "guess what — neither have we. Let's do it together." You have to keep the main thing the main thing, because these partners have their own vision of how things are done, and the church has to be the one to say: no, we are the vision-holders, we're moving forward with what the Lord said. We believe God that nothing is impossible — that we're to build houses and live in them, seek the welfare of the city, feed those who are hungry, provide for those at risk of eviction or already evicted who no longer qualify. The church has to hold its ground. When it does, these partners realize their responsibility is to bring their part to the story, not to try to change the story. It may take a while, but you have to hang in there.

David Bowers  50:41

Reverend Smothers, you're helping us land the plane on this segment — let me ask Reverend Lamar and Dr. Wesley to build on that for a final word. The late Jim Rouse, founder of Enterprise Community Partners, said, "what should be, can be, with the will to make it so." Reverend Lamar, you talked about how there's wealth in the land — the question is what it's prioritized for. So, gentlemen: when folks ask the faith community to play small ball, how can the community of faith hold the ground Reverend Smothers described? What's your word to the faith community — hold the ground, we should do more, can do more, will do more?

Rev. William Lamar  51:41

I was on the phone today with a well-connected person in D.C. talking about the mayoral race — fascinating conversation, but here's where we land the plane: the earth belongs to God, not the church. Jesus was not a Christian. Humanity is God's. So when I view the world as it is, I say to myself that God has entered this space to make it what God dreams. I go back to the prayer Jesus taught us: thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth. My job, when I'm dealing with political and business leaders, is never to be practical.

Rev. William Lamar  52:23

Christianity is impractical. We're in the season of Lent — we believe that death is not permanent. There's nothing more impractical than that. If we believe death can be overturned, then this economic system can be overturned too. If we follow the spirit, human beings can live lives that are abundant, healed, and joyful. It's possible. As Reverend Jasmine said, I don't do the practical — we do the impossible in community, trusting one another, inspired by the spirit. It's possible. It can be done. It will be done. It must be done.

David Bowers  52:58

Businesses believe that, right? So to Jasmine's point about holding our ground — why do we feel we're not capable of what a corporation can do?

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  53:09

I take Jesus at his word — the gates of hell will not prevail. We have more power than we sometimes operate in. The key for us, in partnership and doing business — and this is where you'll see a distinction with Jasmine and Bill — is you've got to be someone people want to do business with. The integrity of how we operate — that we're not simply in existence to earn and gain, but to make a difference.

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  53:39

Especially in our Black church traditions, we don't just need the power and the vision and the concern for those outside the church — we don't operate with good business internally. I cannot draw a multi-billion-dollar community development corporation to want to partner with us if we're always begging to keep the lights on, or there's embezzlement in our own church, and we don't have integrity — we don't follow through on our word, don't pay our bills, don't take care of our contracts. The church has to lift up not only care and compassion, but a witness of integrity in how it handles business.

Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley  54:14

I believe corporations want to partner with the church — that's a win-win. If you've got a great church, they come to you when they're running for elections, right? They all want to get in front of the congregation, talk to the pastor. Let's make them want to run to us for changing the world and caring for the city, because we've shown the capacity, the compassion, and the integrity that draws partners to want to do this work — compassion and integrity.

Closing Reflection

David Bowers  54:46

It's a great way to land the plane here today. I want to thank my guests — Reverend Jasmine Smothers, Reverend William Lamar, and Dr. Howard John Wesley — for being here. If housing is about dignity, then faith communities are uniquely positioned to lead — not just with compassion, but with assets, influence, and vision. Today reminds us that radical common sense is about aligning what we believe with what we do and what we build. Stay radical.

David Bowers  55:20

To join the growing movement around faith-based development, please visit enterprisecommunity.org/FBDI and sign up for our email list to get access to news, resources, and opportunities from across the country. 

Introduction

David Bowers  00:00

Welcome to Radical Common Sense, where faith meets action and community power becomes real solutions. Here we explore how principles become blueprints and how faith institutions are transforming what they already have into what communities truly need. I'm your host, David Bowers, and this is Radical Common Sense, a masterclass in faith-based development.

David Bowers  00:47

Today we look back to move forward, tracing the origins of modern faith-based development. Enterprise launched its Faith-Based Development Initiative in 2006 with a clear mission: expand housing, advance equitable procurement opportunities, strengthen neighborhood anchor institutions, and help nurture a movement far beyond any one organization. What began as a bold idea has grown into a national model rooted in a long history of houses of worship driving community development across the generations.

David Bowers  01:19

So the question guiding us is: how did faith-based development evolve from isolated projects into a scalable model for community transformation? I'm joined today by three leaders who bring history, experience, and movement insight. From the Sunshine State, Reverend Dr. Joaquin Willis, founder and president emeritus of Collective Empowerment Group of South Florida, a consortium of churches advancing social and economic justice.

David Bowers  01:46

For decades, he has mobilized congregations to expand homeownership and economic mobility from South Florida to Prince George's County, Maryland. And on a personal note, he has helped shape my own calling in this work. Joaquin, good to have you.

David Bowers  02:01

Kirk Goodrich, president of Monadnock Development, brings over 30 years of leadership in affordable housing, including involvement with more than a billion dollars invested to create 12,000 new homes.

David Bowers  02:14

He also co-hosts The Housing Problem, exploring New York City's housing challenges and the path forward. And Reverend Dr. Sam Marullo, emeritus professor of sociology at Wesley Theological Seminary. He's a pastor, scholar, and early architect of this movement. Dr. Marullo's work has included helping congregations turn faith into action as the former Minister of Affordable Housing for the Baltimore-Washington Conference of the United Methodist Church. Sam is also a co-founding convener of Enterprise's Faith-Based Development Initiative.

David Bowers  02:48

Gentlemen, welcome to the show.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  02:48

All right. Great to be here.

David Bowers  02:48

Sam, really want to get started with you and ask you a little bit about -- we always talk about how the faith community has been doing this work for a long time, and there's kind of this sense of a modern movement taking hold, an ecosystem developing. So talk to us a little bit about what some of the historical moments or traditions were that laid the groundwork for what we now think of as the faith-based development movement.

Roots of Faith-Driven Community Building

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  03:18

Well, great -- glad to be here. And it's exciting to see how far this movement has come, even in the last 20-plus years that we've been working together with the faith-based development initiative. I think back to the early 2000s, when I was first introduced to this. I was at Georgetown University, and it was really about community-based research at the time.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  03:42

That was kind of an outgrowth of the service-learning movement, which itself is an outgrowth of the asset-based community development movement. So we've got this kind of academic stream that's folding into this -- and then discovering, well, there's a whole lot of people out here already doing things we really didn't know very much about.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  04:02

So we started with a research project on the churches in Anacostia, DC, a predominantly poor African American neighborhood, and we were just looking at the community assets. And for a series of reasons, we started to look at the property assets of the churches, and at the time discovered some 50 churches owned over $72 million worth of property assets, which was just mind-boggling.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  04:29

And so I think that's when we ran into you all, who were actually working with a couple of those churches doing some projects, and realizing the amount of empty land that had all this potential to have something done with it. And so I think that, you know, just that discovery out in the community -- and the universities at the time also trying to figure out, how do we be better anchor institutions? At Georgetown we wanted to make a difference in the community.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  04:58

So how can we utilize the university's research and student resources -- student and faculty resources -- to help make a difference in the community? And then discovering all this work is already being done by community development organizations and larger nonprofits. So it's just these different worlds starting to discover each other existing and doing comparable things that we could all benefit from working together better.

David Bowers  05:22

Yep. And Kirk, you come out of New York City, that experience with a long, rich history of the faith community doing work. From your perspective, why don't you share a little bit of insight about kind of that history of, and the track record of, the faith community doing affordable housing and community development work?

Kirk Goodrich  05:41

Appreciate it, David. So, you know, I grew up in New York, really inspired by -- and now partnering with, for the last 15 years -- East Brooklyn Congregations, which is part of the Industrial Areas Foundation network, and really is known in our world for

Kirk Goodrich  06:01

the Nehemiah homeownership development in East New York -- now rental, many thousands of units, starting in Brooklyn and across the city -- really catalyzed by a group of organizers led by Mike Gecan, and then church-based leadership, first Johnny Ray Youngblood,

Kirk Goodrich  06:18

St. Paul's Community Baptist Church senior pastor, now David Brawley for the last two decades. But really, the work of churches in community development and housing development, to me, is a successor of the civil rights movement, where collective action by churches around voting rights and a variety of issues around empowerment has evolved over time into not only church-based organizing, economic empowerment, but community transformation.

Kirk Goodrich  06:52

And so what I see happening in terms of churches being involved in housing development and retail development and commercial development is a true successor of what we saw happening in the '50s and '60s -- first attaining power, and then deciding what you're going to do with it to change people's lives. I think that's really the question they helped answer so successfully, not only in New York but across the country -- whether it be Leon Sullivan in Philadelphia, John Egan in Chicago in the Catholic faith, and East Brooklyn Congregations in Brooklyn, and more stories like that.

David Bowers  07:29

Doctor Willis as well. Yeah -- appreciate that, Kirk, and good segue. And Joaquin Willis, you I know started some of your faith-based development work in Prince George's County, Maryland, and have carried that to South Florida and really nationally. Say a little bit about your perspective on the history of faith-based development work, right? And some of your experience with that, even with the Collective Banking Group, now the Collective Empowerment Group.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  07:57

Well, thank you, Dave, for having me. And I would just say that, like you just said, your guests have all really accomplished a lot. I really started at 18, following in the footsteps of Martin Luther King, who in his last book, Where Do We Go From Here, challenged us during the Poor People's Campaign. And

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  08:16

as a student, I started seeing a need for education and development, because I grew up in a United Methodist Church.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  08:23

Pastor -- and it really shaped my whole understanding of social justice. And Dr. King's death triggered my interest in economic justice. And the final thing I'll say is that that's led me to what we see ourselves as: a movement of building Black wealth to close the wealth gap in America.

David Bowers  08:43

And let me ask this question. You all have touched -- Kirk,

David Bowers  08:48

you touched on it a little bit, about the faith community -- and I'm going to use the word kind of like 'the church' as a nomenclature for houses of worship of all faiths, right? But kind of the institutional body, the church, if you would -- that history coming out of the civil rights movement, and this notion of, even prior to that,

David Bowers  09:07

the church as a place of social and civic support, right, and an anchor within a community. Kirk, you want to pick up on that a little bit, about some of the history of that, and how that has informed how people are thinking about -- now, what does it mean for the church, right, houses of worship, to be anchor institutions in their community?

Kirk Goodrich  09:32

No, absolutely. I think -- both, when I think about church-based direct action, economic empowerment, and community transformation, I take those things together. I think, because it's the church -- for hundreds of years, whether it's a Black church or whatever the denomination, has always been involved in social good, feeding the hungry, starting health care systems. But the direct action and organizing to change systems, communities, to impact elected officials and government, was different.

Kirk Goodrich  10:12

And I think that's that energy. I think transforming communities through housing, or creating economic self-determination and economic development -- like Leon Sullivan did with Progress Plaza, or John Egan in Chicago, saying, you know, Black homeowners there were buying homes under contract, paying for years, and didn't own the home, and he came up against that. So I just think the ability to take political power and put it in service for the people in your parish, in your church, to transform their lives, the lives of the community, is really what I think differentiates what we're talking about, and what we've seen up until the present time, from the historic work of service -- feeding the

Kirk Goodrich  11:07

hungry, clothing people -- all terrific work, but not work that brought churches in conflict with powers and systems that needed to be impacted and changed.

David Bowers  11:15

And Joaquin, let me ask you a question about that, because the notion of conflict, and the notion of organizing and mobilizing, right -- thinking about what you talked about, in terms of looking to Dr. King and the historical precedent there, and how the Collective Banking Group got started, and that notion of the engagement with power.

David Bowers  11:46

Right. So say a little bit about what the thought process was about engaging with big banks, right, and large financial institutions, and what preceded that, in terms of history that might have informed the thinking of the faith leaders as they were thinking about how are we going to engage with these folks. And if so, what does that look like?

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  12:09

Well, you know, redlining and predatory practices were taking place. But I think the thing that brought the Collective Banking Group together was that we deposited millions of dollars into these banks every Monday morning, and we felt that it was important that we have a voice. And initially we asked not only to speak to them and the leadership, but we threatened to close accounts, move money from those banks to the banks that were responsive.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  12:36

In addition, we would ask to be on their boards, the advisory boards, and at that time we were able to do it. Later on, for different reasons, the banks moved their headquarters and we weren't able to do that. And as we watched this thing unfold, we began to realize that the churches themselves were struggling financially -- so they were land rich and cash poor.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  12:57

And we started thinking, well, what can we do to help build capacity for both the church and the community? And that gave birth to my doctoral study in holistic human development -- you were a part of that, David. And I started to see the need to build leadership in the '80s, working with IBM and Xerox, because I had big jobs making big money.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  13:18

Dean Jones asked me -- he said, look, I want you to get your doctorate, and I want you to focus in on helping the pastors get more technology into the church. Well, the churches weren't ready, so I had to flip the script -- so why aren't they ready? And we realized that we'd been building leaders in the church for many, many years.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  13:36

Cab drivers were now treasurers and chairs of trustee boards that were running a million dollars through the churches. And we began to see, hey, there's a segue here -- if we're going to do what we need to do, engage the faith community holistically, let's do it ecumenically. So we began to bring those churches -- now we're interfaith. The Collective Empowerment Group is interfaith.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  13:59

It includes Islamic temples, and some of the leaders are from the Islamic community as well as Christian leaders. So we're excited about where we're going now. But this has been challenging, David, as you know.

David Bowers  14:14

Yeah, for sure. And Sam, I want to ask you if there are some lessons that you -- when you think about your leadership, your work at Georgetown, your work at Wesley, your work within the United Methodist Church --

David Bowers  14:25

are there some lessons that folks can learn from some of the early faith building, faith-community building, faith-organizing work that informs and can apply to what we need to do today?

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  14:39

Yeah. Kirk, I want to thank you for raising that -- the IAF, the Industrial Areas Foundation, and that whole community organizing aspect. You know, being at Georgetown, a predominantly white, affluent institution, there was always the sense you got to play within the rules.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  14:57

And, you know, that worked for affluent folks, for whom the system was set up to work. But it doesn't work so well for folks outside the system, or who are prevented from benefiting from the system. So that whole political aspect of taking on opposition, organizing for power, I think that became really important for us to realize.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  15:20

And it being a Catholic institution, it had its Catholic social teachings that said you have to be on behalf of the poor, organize and do work on behalf of the poor. I know in my own Methodist church, we have our social principles that say the same thing. So these teachings have been out there for literally hundreds and hundreds of years.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  15:43

But they never really took on this kind of political-organizing aspect that said you needed to mobilize resources for the people that are being disempowered by the system. So it's not just works of charity that are meant to help the poor -- you know, as you mentioned, feeding the hungry, providing some shelter for the homeless and so on.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  16:04

But you actually needed to empower folks to own the property, and to own the means of gathering resources, employment, and business opportunities. So that was, you know, kind of a real learning moment, I think, for the movement, to say this -- this is political, and it can't be avoided.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  16:26

And that we need to take that on head-on, as the church, as the university, as these anchor institutions -- we have to be aware of the power inequities and do the organizing around it. So all of those things coming together, I think, were really important for the movement's growth.

The Birth of a Movement

David Bowers  16:44

Absolutely, absolutely. And Kirk, I want to pick up there, kind of a segue to something you said earlier that Sam just got in on, around the IAF --

David Bowers  16:52

the notion of the political organizing, the mobilizing. When we think about today's context, right -- and I love the fact that you're the development company -- faith community, if they're going to do this work, has to intersect with developers, financial institutions, government folks and the like. So when you think about the Nehemiah movement, IAF, and lessons learned from that movement, and what needs to be taken by the faith community today, as lessons about how to mobilize power, engage power, that notion of conflict you talked about, right?

David Bowers  17:28

What are some of the lessons we take from that, that can inform the evolution now of the movement in this modern context?

Kirk Goodrich  17:28

Well, I think the three things I think of immediately -- which is the lesson of Industrial Areas Foundation and the work in Brooklyn and all over the country -- is, one, defining what the problem is, right? And so really having the ability, through organizing and communicating with people in a church-based setting, to really have a very focused definition of what you want the powers that be to do.

Kirk Goodrich  18:04

The problem with modern-day activism is that it's angry, it's loud -- but the question is, is it effective? When you have people's attention, what do you want them to do? Occupy Wall Street is one example of -- you know, I think people were right to be angry about the things they were angry about,

Kirk Goodrich  18:30

but fundamentally, when you have people's attention, and people are waiting to hear your ask, it has to be representative of the problems people are facing, and it has to be achievable. So: one, definition of the problem. Two, collective action -- the lone-ranger mentality is not effective in creating immediate and ongoing, sustained activity.

Kirk Goodrich  19:01

And so the ability of ordinary people to come together and change their community, their state, their city, their country, is the second lesson. I think the third lesson is: you don't need to know everything -- that it's okay to partner with developers, financial institutions, contractors, architects who know more than you. The building of a building is a value-neutral proposition.

Kirk Goodrich  19:25

Who it serves, and who owns it and controls it, is a different matter. And so the final lesson is that, through partnership, you create capacity, credibility, and the ability to execute -- and that building buildings and changing communities is a detail-and-execution exercise. And that's really important for folks who want to succeed.

David Bowers  19:52

It's a great, great lesson about how networks and collaborations can help. And Joaquin, I want to ask you about -- as the Collective Banking Group, kind of, Collective Empowerment Group has evolved over time, and we think about this movement you talked about earlier about building Black wealth, focus on homeownership in some respects, in other economic development -- how have networks, and networking and collaboration with other players, other stakeholders in the ecosystem, helped the CEG and others that you may have seen kind of evolve in their work, and more importantly, evolve in their effectiveness and their impact over time?

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  20:36

Well, first part of the answer is: networking, as I learned in the computer field, is a very delicate art. We watched the migration from Ethernet to internet, and now here we are on a podcast as we're tying people around the world together. The speed of all of this, even in the networking system, is based on trust.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  20:58

We build collaborative teams by trusting each other. We build the church movement by pastors learning to trust each other. We help the churches and the pastors learn how to trust the congregation, and conversely the congregation trusts the pastors. So I think the networking piece really is weaving together a fabric with integrity that people can trust, that you have the right intention in mind.

David Bowers  21:25

That's the answer to part one. Now would you kind of just take part two of that -- because I think I lost it a little bit there. That notion of how there were some of those lessons learned from the networking and the relationship building that the CEG has done with other partners in the ecosystem -- what has been taken from that to help grow the work and the effectiveness of the CEG over time?

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  21:52

Okay, great question. You know, the CEG had an office -- actually a chapter in Baltimore. We had a chapter in Prince George's County, which covered Washington. North Carolina came online. I moved and pastored a church here in Florida, and then the South Florida chapter was founded -- some pastors who had confidence in what we were doing said, hey, we need to take it to Tampa.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  22:18

So the Tampa chapter's there. There's a chapter in Cincinnati, and fledgling chapters in other communities. And Jonathan Weaver, who is the president and founder, has actually started some chapters in Africa, and he's doing great work over there, dealing with education and economic empowerment. So we watched this thing kind of just morph by a sense of, 'I trust this guy --

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  22:43

come and tell me about this.' So that's kind of where the movement's taking itself today. Where it'll go in the future, I'm not really sure, but it seems like it's really grown.

David Bowers  22:54

And Sam, I want to ask you a question about picking up from where we were, about trust, right -- folks having to deal with each other, the notion of the role of mentorship and knowledge-sharing.

David Bowers  23:06

So you've sat in different places, and I think about your work at Wesley Seminary, right, and also your work within the Baltimore-Washington Conference, United Methodist Church, and beyond. How important has it been for folks who have been there, done that, to mentor others, to share their information, share their knowledge, share their networks, right? And so a little bit of that interplay between the building of trust between folks, and the sharing of knowledge, and in some cases just mentoring folks to say, look, this is how I did it, lessons learned --

David Bowers  23:37

and, have you seen models of that, and how important is that work?

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  23:37

Yeah, I think so, so critical, and yet it seems to me so underdeveloped -- that again, coming at it from kind of more of an academic side, or the seminary side, it's very kind of happenstance when it happens. You find people who have been doing the work, and it's a blessing when they share that knowledge and wisdom and take folks under their wing.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  24:03

We tried, and I think have had some success, in creating some programs that, for example, get students out into the community, or seminarians out into the community, to do fellowships and internships, and working with organizations and placing them there for more than one semester at a time. That's also one of those institutional challenges -- the academic year is built on semesters,

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  24:27

and so three months isn't enough time. So you need a year or two years long -- some relationships to allow the time to be built. And so thinking outside the box of how to make that happen -- it's something I feel like I've spent a lot of my career trying to do, at Georgetown and at Wesley, to create programs that will allow students to spend a lot of time in the community, working with organizations, staying in one place, getting contextual knowledge and building personal relationships, for exactly that reason -- to understand, you know, you're not -- each person doing this is inventing

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  25:09

the wheel over and over again. We need to learn from one another that has walked that road before, and learn from the mistakes and the challenges, and then move the goal further as they proceed.

David Bowers  25:16

Kirk, I want to pick up on what Doc said about mistakes, and also what Joaquin said about trust.

David Bowers  25:29

So again, I'm going to go back to your role -- you've been a financier, you've been a developer, you are a developer, right, in the faith community. When we talk about the birth of a movement, and the evolution of the movement within the faith community, there are times where folks in the faith community are seen as easy marks, right, that can be taken advantage of.

David Bowers  25:50

And there are those who have built trust with folks in the ecosystem, have been mentored, have learned, right, availed themselves the opportunity to kind of learn things. From your perspective, are there some insights you have, from the different hats you've worn, about the importance of folk in the faith community getting equipped in a way, right, that allows them to be good, effective players in this ecosystem, and not get taken advantage of?

Kirk Goodrich  26:20

Yeah, I think a few things -- just like preaching a sermon, or running a church, there are things to know about it. And my dad used to say, don't tell people you can do things you can't -- don't pretend to be something you're not. And I think we all have to be respectful of the skill set that's required to do any task, but particularly something like designing a building, financing a building, building a building, operating a building.

Kirk Goodrich  26:50

And fundamentally, I tell folks -- whether it's finding somebody to walk your dog, or build your building, pick somebody who, you know, has done it successfully, over and over again. And I think what faith-based institutions often fall into is the need to try to do too much with their project. We want to employ people of color, people in the community, we want to create economic development opportunities.

Kirk Goodrich  27:28

We want to educate, we want to build affordable housing, we want retail. You know, in basketball, there's not one shot that's worth ten points that's actually going to make up the distance and make up the gap. And you've got to pick one or two things you want to accomplish with your deal, your project. You've got to find the right team of people who've done that over and over again,

Kirk Goodrich  27:53

and you've got to partner with them, and you've got to take your single, you've got to take your double. You know, you have to make sure that you're not trying to do too much, and that what you're trying to do, you're doing with folks who've done it many times before. I mean, to me, that's the formula. That's the speech I've given many times before.

David Bowers  28:11

Yeah. It's interesting. Go ahead, Sam.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  28:11

I was just going to say, which -- that's wonderful advice. And yet we look to our church leaders, the senior pastor in a church, and expect them to know how to do all those things. And that seems to be the real problem -- that we put people in positions where they've not been properly equipped.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  28:32

I remember many times you saying, 'Oh, I missed that day in seminary about real estate development or property management -- missed that class that day.'

David Bowers  28:32

That's right.

David Bowers  28:32

And Sam, have you seen any -- talk about the birth and evolution of a movement within seminaries in this country? Has there been real conversation or evolution about kind of building that into the code of what seminarians are equipped with, you know, training about --

David Bowers  28:56

how do you manage buildings and land? Right, because you're going to be a leader of an institution that's stewarding that asset.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  28:56

Yeah, not a whole lot, I'm afraid, I'm afraid to say. There's a little bit, you know, in church leadership, about stewardship and about development, and there might be an optional course you might take, a week-long seminar or something like that, but it's not really a well-integrated component.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  29:22

And, you know, the pressure is to compress the seminary curriculum these days and get people in and out more quickly. And so they're kind of conflicting goals, with, you need to know more about this stuff. And I think doing the cohort trainings and the FBDI training model is such an important piece.

David Bowers  29:38

Yeah, I'm sure we'll come back to that, but no, I appreciate that for sure. Well, that really brings us -- we've been talking about how this movement has taken shape. But let's fast-forward a bit to see how lives have been changed. Today in our This Is the Calling segment, we're highlighting Trinity Plaza, one of the earliest projects supported by Enterprise's Faith-Based Development Initiative. From the archives,

David Bowers  30:09

let's hear from a resident of Trinity Plaza in Washington, DC.

This Is the Calling — Trinity Plaza

Trinity Plaza resident  30:15

It was really tough to find a place that was clean, was safe. When I came across Trinity Plaza, it was awesome, because it met all of my standards, and it was affordable. This project has helped the community become more like a family. It makes me feel like I matter -- I don't have to worry about going to Maryland or Virginia to try to find affordable housing, or something that I can't afford on my own.

Trinity Plaza resident  30:39

Before I came to Trinity Plaza, I was working two full-time jobs to make ends meet where I used to live. So for me, to be able to keep one steady and spend more time with my children -- I get to put them to bed at night, I get to cook dinner for them, and I also get to read my son a bedtime story.

David Bowers  30:55

That's what this work is all about -- financial stability for residents and their little ones. All right, let's jump right back in. I want to pick up on that issue around kind of the seminary training. Kirk, Joaquin, I'm curious if either of you all have had any conversations, or seen anything going on, in the world of seminaries -- seminary training, kind of during the formal seminary years, or kind of continuing education -- where folks are trying to equip those folks with some knowledge about this project, this process.

Owning the Land, Shaping the Future

David Bowers  31:24

Kirk, anything in that space for you?

Kirk Goodrich  31:24

I think the financial intermediaries -- Enterprise and organizations like it, across the country -- have done an incredible job of really answering the question of, and filling the gaps of, what folks need to know. I do think that partnership is the most effective way to want to educate, but to execute, both building development, ownership, economic development.

Kirk Goodrich  32:00

I think the complexity and the breadth of the skills you need to finance, design, construct, operate, lease up, and operate buildings is so broad that it's really not realistic to expect any one institution to have all of that. Our company has done almost 60 projects, and we have an integrated company.

Kirk Goodrich  32:34

We partner on almost everything, because there are elements of executing a project we don't do as well as some of our partners -- community engagement, you know, dealing with creating trust in communities. I describe trust as infrastructure -- meaning the power of faith-based development is that you have these institutions that have been located in these communities forever.

Kirk Goodrich  33:05

They have a reservoir of goodwill and trust with not only parishioners and congregants, but, you know, government elected officials, other stakeholders. And so when you look at trust as necessary infrastructure to execute your agenda and your project, that is not something we bring to the table -- but that is the element that's indispensable, that's necessary on everything.

Kirk Goodrich  33:35

And if that's what you do best, then do that. You don't need to be a jack of all trades. And I think that's the message I deliver to people. You need to understand it, but you don't need to be the operator, the executor of every element of what you do.

David Bowers  33:46

It's interesting you say that, Kirk. We -- Enterprise -- talk about, in our training curriculum, 20 hours of content, making faith and lay leaders comfortably conversant about the development process.

David Bowers  34:04

And it's really exciting to see how the movement has evolved over time, where there are more players in the ecosystem. We know that folks like the Oikos Institute, folks like Rooted Good, Local Initiatives Support Corporation, Enterprise -- there's a range of folks in the ecosystem now, the United Church of Christ Church Building & Loan Fund. There are a lot of players in the space now, in ways that there weren't ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, who are taking formalized approaches to addressing kind of the equipping of folks beyond even like a seminary setting and the like.

David Bowers  34:37

Joaquin, I actually want to come to you, my friend, on something you touched on earlier. And Kirk also hit on the notion of ownership, right -- ownership of land and helping folks become landowners, right. Is there a point in time, Joaquin, that you can look at in the work that you've done, where land ownership became such a pivotal shift in the conversation and an area of focus in this movement?

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  35:04

Yeah, I guess it was always that way for me. I had a great-grandfather who owned land and sold it to chemical plants -- created jobs with his sons and education for his daughters. So I came from a family of believers in economic empowerment. The other thing I want to say -- Sam touched on this, I want to not lose it --

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  35:25

Dean Jones and I had an intense conversation about helping pastors learn technology in the 1980s, and the reason it's so critical -- he stopped me. He said, look, you only have so many semesters to get your degree -- I was going for my doctorate. He said, you're going to have to take time and focus on a case study -- this project you're talking about, it's going to take 20 years.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  35:49

I said, Dean, I'm going to compromise -- go ahead and get the degree, but I'm going to do a master plan that I'll be able to take with me wherever I go. And we're going to use this to measure how much have we developed jobs, housing, economic employment that is really competitive, so that we can keep people in communities.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  36:10

So, yeah, I think, David, it's an ongoing struggle to help the faith community, especially, understand its need to be able to help create whatever vision that child has. In your case, you had a vision of doing this. I was so heartbroken, because I needed you to be the pastor of the church that I was about to leave, from

David Bowers  36:31

You're going to tell all my business now -- you're going to tell it all. You're going to tell it all now.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  36:31

Oh, yeah -- so you left that and went and did it. I'm proud of you now, because now you've been -- you're helping thousands of churches and people. But you left me in a way where -- oh, God -- I had to focus on my own human development, because I think the key is to develop character.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  36:51

You've got to know your purpose, understand your call, and deal with what God is calling you to do -- to answer your question, your last one.

David Bowers  37:00

Yeah, absolutely. No, I appreciate that, Doc. And it's been a blessing, and I hope one of the lessons that folks will take away from this conversation, when we talk about the evolution of the movement -- and Kirk hit on this earlier -- that there's a need for the training of folk, and intentionality about training people, transferring knowledge, information, giving people the opportunity to be in positions of leadership and work,

David Bowers  37:25

right, so that they can learn kind of hands-on, in both kind of academic settings but also experiential settings, as well. Going back, thinking about ownership -- and again, that kind of Nehemiah piece you touched on this earlier -- when we think about our affordable housing world and our ecosystem, a lot of the work tends to focus on the need, rightfully, right, understandably so, around rental.

David Bowers  37:49

Right, there's a need for affordable rental housing in the country, kind of, period, full stop. There's also a need for more ownership -- there are huge gaps in terms of ownership and the like. And so when you think about both the institutional church owning land, and it helping members and/or folks in the community own homes and the like, talk about what you've seen in terms of the importance of that, the evolution of that,

David Bowers  38:15

and as we think for the next 20, 50, 100 years going forward, what role -- what's that balance between congregations thinking about owning land and helping their members own land, and balancing that with the need for kind of affordable rental in the space?

Kirk Goodrich  38:43

Yeah, I think what our industry yearns for is responsible, mission-driven stewardship.

Kirk Goodrich  38:43

The movement to do community land trusts is really a call for that. What I would say, you know, is that the ability to recognize the needs in your community, gather the expertise -- is it through partnership or educating yourself -- and look at your role as being a long-term steward and owner of rental housing, and an enabler of homeownership for those who are ready for it.

Kirk Goodrich  39:15

That's really the perfect combination. And I always say to folks, you know, to win a war, you do need mercenaries -- you need people who just know how to fight. But everybody can't be a mercenary -- you need some patriots mixed in there. And so the role of folks, you know, churches and synagogues and parishes that are focused on owning assets long-term, being good stewards of it -- both in terms of, you know, making sure the buildings are run well,

Kirk Goodrich  39:49

but if somebody is a little behind on their rent, you know, you're going to work with them. I think that's indispensable, it's necessary, and I think every functioning, compassionate housing ecosystem needs that, in order to be what we hope for.

David Bowers  40:15

Yeah. So, yeah, absolutely. That's such a great perspective. And yet, you know, just thinking of my own seminary experience -- that's not something that got inculcated in us, that we were taking over a stewardship of an investment of generations past, and that we were to steward it forward, and to do good with it, as time went forward. How would we pass on this inheritance, this gift that we received, to be a blessing to the community and to our church members and those in the surrounding neighborhood?

David Bowers  40:44

Yeah, it's such -- you know, an important understanding of gratitude, and also, you know, the circle of blessing -- that we've received this, and it's our responsibility to pass it on. Just think of all of the church-owned properties right around the country. And, you know, we've done a lot of work in the United Methodist Conference here in the Baltimore-Washington area,

David Bowers  41:09

and, you know, the 600-plus churches owning tens of thousands of acres of land, and so much of it's just sitting kind of underdeveloped, underutilized at the moment. How do we create a systematic plan for that, and utilize the resources collectively of the United Methodist Church, for example, to do good with that, to be a blessing for the current people that we consider our congregants and our parishioners in the community, and for generations to come?

David Bowers  41:39

Sam, stay there for a minute. Have you, in your conversations within the conference and within the United Methodist Church writ large, and with other denominations, right -- folks that you talk to who are in denominational leadership -- are you seeing a lot of that thinking, that, hey, we need to have an intentionality as the institutional church, so to speak, about what it means for us to steward land, control --

David Bowers  42:03

you know, control this land, and think about what it means to use it for God's good purposes. Are you hearing and seeing much of that?

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  42:03

Yeah, well, the beginnings of it, yes, absolutely. I think every conference -- the Methodist church is divided into conferences, similar to dioceses, for folks that know Catholic or Episcopal language -- but it's the geographic territories, and the mainline churches own that land, and the local churches just operated in trust of it. And that whole understanding of the larger body owning this collectively, and being tasked to do good for the community,

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  42:38

is really kind of a newer way of thinking about a thing, or an advancing way, that, you know, traditionally it's just been the local church, the local parish that's responsible for its neighborhood. But to be thinking collectively of, you know, all of this property that's held on behalf of church A, B, or of the denomination A, B, or C, that we have a larger responsibility to think of --

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  43:02

how do we pass that on? And I think so many denominations, at least the mainline churches these days, are all facing financial challenges and aging buildings and infrastructure, that we need to find some solutions. And we need to be creative about it. And if we depend on just each one local church at a time making a local decision, that's not going to lead to the best outcome --

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  43:26

that probably will be a downward spiral of an outcome.

Relevance, Identity, and the Modern House of Worship

David Bowers  43:26

It really is. It's an interesting thing in the conversations we're having nationally about the need and the opportunity for denominations to think about how they can be supportive, writ large -- and yet that dynamic, in some cases, where local congregations see national denominations as not so much the friend or the helper. And sometimes they do. Sam, you talked about something -- Joaquin, I'm going to come to you with this, where Sam talked about, in some respects, the practical challenges that congregations or denominations can face

David Bowers  44:01

when you think about, okay, maybe we've gotten over that hump and we're saying, let's do some development -- now we're in the world of development and all the challenges that come with it. Joaquin, in your experience working with various congregations, what are some of the practical challenges that you're seeing, that congregations and/or denominational-level entities have to deal with and equip themselves for, when thinking about doing affordable housing or community development?

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  44:28

Well, I want to say, earlier, Sam, thank you for bringing that point to the table. It's a dual process, and it's a parallel track. We need to be developing stronger leaders who will be doing the thinking about where we're going -- that's why I'm so big on this, you know, leadership development, seed to harvest, working with young leaders who will become the leaders of the church tomorrow,

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  44:51

because not just the buildings are aging, the people are aging. You need those young views. Then the other side of that same equation is: preach and teach the sound doctrine. Oh my God, the church's doctrine is dated, and it's erroneous, especially when it comes down to the African American, or if you will African, theology, because the reality is, we're living in a world now that is becoming more and more divisive,

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  45:18

and the message of the evangelical church, especially that of European -- is really, you know, Black folk come and join white church, you know. And believe me, there are people saying that online, on screens, and, you know, we are ignorant, we didn't go to seminary, we don't know what we're talking about. And I think there's a need to really get some sound teaching and preaching in place, and to develop young people who come in with all these different skill sets, and find out where the team is strong and where it's weak, and strengthen it.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  45:52

And that's where we've been focusing a lot in building the collective -- and even in the cities, looking at the different cities -- Tampa's needs are totally different from South Florida, and South Florida's needs are different from Prince George's County. But we talk, and we try to figure out how do we navigate this -- when it was just different, because the AME church was born out of the United Methodist Church. My grandfather was a CME pastor.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  46:17

I became United Methodist, then I ended up going to school and becoming a United Church of Christ ordained pastor. So I'm really very ecumenical -- but that has been a real trap for a lot of us, and we died there.

David Bowers  46:26

Kirk, I want to pick up on this notion of the equipping of folks for this work, when we talk about the evolution, kind of shaping the future, right --

David Bowers  46:42

where do we go with this? So again, you've worked both as financier and developer, in terms of some of those practical challenges. If folks want to get into this work -- whether you're a denominational leader at a regional level, national level, congregational level, whether you're a local government person who says, hey, we ought to support these churches doing this work, etc. -- what would you say are a few practical things and challenges

David Bowers  47:06

that folks need to say, we need to make sure the faith partner is equipped with these things, to help them navigate these waters?

Kirk Goodrich  47:06

So, so one of the things -- I can answer that question in several ways, but I think one of the traps that congregations, single churches, parishes might fall into is: to them, development is 'what can I do with my property' -- like, this property I own.

Kirk Goodrich  47:37

And that's meaningful, and that could be a start. But the most prominent, successful preacher-developers that I'm aware of -- most of them didn't even start with their property. Their vision was, how can I transform my community? How can I compel the mayor in my city to sell me that parcel, so that we could realize our vision?

Kirk Goodrich  48:11

And so the first and most important thing I would say is: don't limit your vision to the parcel you own. Have a vision for transforming your community, and make it holistic. And then compel, you know, government stakeholders, elected officials, to help you realize your vision -- whether you're talking about Calvin Butts in Harlem, Reverend Floyd Flake and Elaine Flake in Queens, the Nehemiah work in Brooklyn, now led by Pastor David Brawley, on and on.

Kirk Goodrich  48:52

The common denominator is their ability to look so far beyond the actual property they owned, to having a vision for transforming their neighborhood, which required them to compel folks they didn't control, and acquire property they didn't own, and obtain resources they didn't have. And if you're not thinking that way, I think you're off to a bad start.

David Bowers  49:22

Yeah. And Joaquin, you've done that work in South Florida -- I'm thinking, where Kirk was, that notion of -- talk a little bit about what that's looked like in South Florida, and how that might help churches with their long-term sustainability, because we know so many churches are in crisis and challenge now.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  49:48

We had the county mayor and commissioners -- we went and bought land, actually infill lots -- got a building on them, and we brought developers to the table who could build, contractors who could build, turn them into developers.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  50:12

But in addition to that, as we saw the mayor started hearing about this, saying, look, what can we do to help the churches who own property buy property outside? I think Kirk makes a good point that most of the successful pastors bought property outside of their facility.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  50:12

Jeremiah Wright did that in Chicago and built housing. And then, as it turns out, at the same time he's preaching sound theology, he's got this young senator sitting out there who is a community organizer named Barack Obama, and Barack hears him and decides to run for the Senate. Next thing you know, he's running for president. So Jeremiah Wright was doing development of both human capacity and physical capacity in that little area there in Chicago.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  50:39

And I think that we can look at other models -- in Texas, I can't think of his name, Kirby John Caldwell, who's doing something very aggressive in the '90s down there, building shopping centers. In your area right now, my good friend – has brought the Kingdom Square, Anthony Macklin, turned that around and is doing other stuff.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  51:03

So this is a wonderful opportunity, a great window of opportunity, and we just need to build leaders from that vision and take it to the next level.

David Bowers  51:07

And Sam, I want to use that to kind of transition into a real -- stay where we are, but really transition to a real conversation about relevance, right. Kirk talked about how a faith community, the advice of, hey, think about the broader community, not just a parcel.

David Bowers  51:29

In your experience, how important is that, do you think, for faith communities to think about -- how do we remain -- answering the question about relevance? How are we staying relevant, and how does this work potentially tie in to us being relevant in this current context in which we find ourselves?

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  51:29

Yeah, that's a great question. And getting outside, outside your building, outside your four walls is the first step -- having good relationships with the community members, and the political leaders, and the business leaders.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  52:03

I think all of that -- and all of that is not very well emphasized in seminary training. I mean, it really has such a narrow focus, and doing the community building, community outreach, and relationship building -- that piece is so important. And how we do that, I think we just need to get much better at it, as far as seminary education goes, that mission-driven development is so important.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  52:35

And, you know, how do we understand the mission? Different denominations, of course, operate differently. But in the Methodist church, we have an itinerant pastor -- so people don't stay in a community all that long, which is a problem for getting to know the community. If you're there five or seven or ten years, you know, it takes a year or two just to get to know who your neighbors are and to find out what's happening with the community.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  53:02

And so the focus of seminary education needs to be a lot more on relationship building and community outreach -- I think that's really an important, important piece.

David Bowers  53:02

And let me ask you also about congregational identity. How might some congregations -- are going to be afraid, right, that this may change our identity? And when you think about, in your experience dealing with congregations who have to deal with that issue, what's some advice you may have -- as you go into this space and you're thinking about, will this change our identity? Yes, no, maybe -- how might congregations approach that?

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  53:36

Yeah, you've really just got to trust -- trust in God. That's kind of the bottom line, right? Because a lot of folks know church as just this community, safe space, meaning it's people like me that I've known for a long time -- and, oh yeah, by the way, the neighborhood's changed over time.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  53:56

And we see in urban areas, we just see that all the time -- that as a congregation ages, it looks less and less like the surrounding community. And so having intentional practices of connecting with the community, and learning to build trusted relationships with the community, and learning to give up control -- I think that's such an important thing.

Rev. Dr. Sam Marullo  54:20

And as you say, all of those sometimes makes congregations pretty fearful of their neighbors, and not knowing who their neighbors are, and how best to use their assets to serve as a blessing to the neighborhood. So being intentional about that, I think, is so, so important.

David Bowers  54:36

Absolutely. Doc, you want to jump in?

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  54:40

Yeah -- hard to jump in on this screen. I wanted to say, Kirk made a good point about Floyd Flake. Floyd Flake, who was a congressman initially, had someone else running his nonprofits. And as he left Congress, he went and brought the community outreach. At one point his church was the second-leading employer in Queens, second only to LaGuardia Airport.

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  55:09

So, you know, you can really -- if you got a vision and you got a visionary leader, you begin to realize, I can't do this by myself. So who should I turn to for these various areas of strength? And you build your capacity that way. And Floyd Flake did a great job. So did Calvin Butts, following in the footsteps of Samuel Proctor --

Rev. Dr. Joaquin Willis  55:31

he started a credit union, and that credit union became one of the guiding forces for banking for that community. So it's a whole lot of areas where we can impactfully make results happen, if we just have patience and vision.

David Bowers  55:58

And Kirk, it may sound like a cliche of sorts, this notion of a house of worship doing a housing project, or doing, you know, a community facility --

David Bowers  55:58

it provides healthy food options, or affordable childcare, or daycare, those kinds of things. When you think about the notion of -- as a developer, or financier, or just someone in community -- what's a message that you would have for the faith community? Again, as we look to the future, right, to say, this is why these kinds of things matter, and yeah, it's going to be hard, but you can do it, right,

David Bowers  56:24

and so kind of buckle up and let's go.

Kirk Goodrich  56:24

I think two things. One,

Kirk Goodrich  56:32

don't see conflict and confrontation as something to be avoided. My mother used to say, get mad at who you're supposed to get mad at, and fight who you're supposed to fight. And the idea is, there is a moment for that. But make sure it's -- in order to advance your community in a meaningful way.

Kirk Goodrich  56:56

And so make sure it's visionary, it's bold, it's large, and it's going to create the kind of transformation that matters. And fundamentally, my second point is: housing is a bundle of goods and services. It's not only the physical space you live in. And so don't just create a housing project on a corner somewhere.

Kirk Goodrich  57:21

You know, what's in the housing bundle? Are the schools functioning? Do you have recreation space? Are there places to shop? Are there, you know, job opportunities? Is it safe? Is it near transportation? All the things that folks with money look to, and make decisions on, based on when they want to buy a home -- yeah, those are the same things we ought to be seeking and creating in our communities for our people, not just, here's

Kirk Goodrich  57:52

a cheap apartment or a home. It's got to be more robust than that. In recognition that, like I said, housing is a bundle of goods and services -- it's not just the space you're living in.

Closing Reflection

David Bowers  58:07

Well, the words -- the three words -- bold, large, and transformation, is where we will land the plane. I want to really thank our guests today for this conversation, that reminds us that movements don't appear overnight.

David Bowers  58:20

They are built through vision, persistence, and people willing to see possibilities where others see limits. Today, Dr. Joaquin Willis, Kirk Goodrich, and Dr. Sam Marullo have helped tell us the story of faith-based development, and how it is ultimately a story of relevance -- of institutions choosing not just to serve communities, but to grow with them. And as we've heard, the blueprint already exists, rooted in history, strengthened by collaboration, and guided by purpose.

David Bowers  58:52

Stay radical.

David Bowers  58:54

To join the growing movement around faith-based development, please visit enterprisecommunity.org/FBDI and sign up for our email list to get access to news, resources, and opportunities from across the country.

Introductions 

David Bowers  00:00 

Welcome to Radical Common Sense, where faith meets action and community power becomes real solutions. Here we explore how principles become blueprints and how faith institutions are transforming what they already have into what communities truly need. I'm your host, David Bowers, and this is Radical Common Sense, a masterclass in faith-based development.  

David Bowers  00:48 

Today we step into the arena where possibility becomes reality: policy. Across the country, faith communities are learning that vision alone isn't enough. Zoning, legislation, and public investment determine whether housing moves forward or stalls. So the question guiding us is: what policy breakthroughs are driving, and will continue to shape, faith-based development? We'll explore how the rules are evolving, why faith leaders are becoming powerful advocates, and what it takes to turn policy into real homes. 

David Bowers  01:22 

Joining me are leaders at the intersection of faith, housing, and public policy. Lawana Mayfield, City Councilmember in Charlotte, North Carolina, is a champion for equitable housing and inclusive development, rooted in grassroots organizing. She has helped lead Charlotte's Faith and Housing Initiative, expanding affordability and opportunity. 

David Bowers  01:44 

Vicki Been, co-faculty director of the NYU Furman Center and professor of law at NYU, is a national leader in housing policy. Her work has shaped how cities approach affordability and land use, including her service as New York City's deputy mayor for housing and economic development. And Colleen Green, director of the Washington, DC Department of Housing and Community Development. 

David Bowers  02:10 

She's been a key driver of affordable housing in Washington, DC -- a critical partner to Enterprise, her office has helped support 28 congregations developing housing, providing funding, expertise, and policy pathways. Ladies, welcome to the show. 

Why Policy Shapes What's Possible 

David Bowers  02:27 

So we're going to jump right into it today. We know that every housing project exists within a framework of rules, 

David Bowers  02:34 

and those rules determine timelines, costs, and even whether projects can happen at all. Council Member Mayfield, I'd like to start with you -- why is policy such a decisive factor in helping us think about how we can scale faith-based development? 

Lawana Mayfield  02:53 

Again, thank you for the invitation. But what we have to realize is that most of the barriers aren't about willingness. 

Lawana Mayfield  03:00 

They are about the rules and the -- faith organizations often have land and have a mission, but policy determines whether that land can realistically be used for housing. And if zoning, timelines, or costs don't align, projects could stall before they even start. 

David Bowers  03:00 

Thanks, Council member. And Vicky, I want to ask you -- you've had the benefit of looking at things locally in New York, but also nationally. 

David Bowers  03:26 

When you think about why policy is such a decisive factor in scaling faith-based development, what would you add to that piece? 

Vicki Been  03:26 

I would add -- and thank you for having me -- that I would add the complications of it all. You're asking a congregation that isn't familiar with land use, zoning, all of those things. Suddenly you're asking them to navigate what is an incredibly complicated, overly complicated system. 

David Bowers  03:51 

Yeah, absolutely. And Colleen, you serving as director of the Department of Housing -- let me ask you about barriers. Council Member Mayfield talked about barriers. In your experience, and you've been both on kind of multiple sides, in government and outside of government, what are some of those common barriers that you see when houses of worship are trying to approach doing development? 

David Bowers  04:11 

And how might you suggest to them things that they may want to look out for and get prepared for? 

Colleen Green  04:11 

Well, I think it's a very confusing process for the most part. And if you don't have experience in doing development, it's -- there's a multilayered, multifaceted piece to it. And so having a good partner and a good development consultant, someone that you trust, is really important in doing that. 

Colleen Green  04:35 

The other barriers -- just kind of general understanding of how it's done. And the other two representatives on this podcast have said it's timing, right? So it's definitely -- you have to be in it for the long haul, it's not microwavable, right. So understanding that, and having commitment to the process and understanding the steps of the process, is really important. 

David Bowers  04:58 

Yeah, Council member -- Director Green talked about this notion of it's not microwavable, and this notion of how do we prepare houses of worship for this work. And so in the city of Charlotte, do you want to share a little bit about what you all are doing to help equip and prepare congregations for this work, the kind of investment that the city is making? 

Lawana Mayfield  05:23 

Well, I'll try to keep it short, because it's an exciting opportunity -- we're working with Enterprise, but what we identified is that the need and the desire is there. We know that housing affordability across the nation is a major challenge. So what we've been able to do is create and identify a cohort of 12 different religious institutions that are now going through a training where they are not only learning about zoning, they are learning about planning. 

Lawana Mayfield  05:54 

And the City of Charlotte put a financial investment of $2.5 million in our budget at the beginning. We've also got funding allocated through Congresswoman Alma Adams, our representative on the national level, where we are offsetting those costs -- we are paying for the training. We will also help with some of those pre-development costs, because that's a major barrier when you're looking at identifying land and looking at how we can directly impact not only the unit count and the allowable uses. 

Lawana Mayfield  06:27 

This gives us the ability to make sure that they're educated. So whatever developer they are speaking with, they go into that conversation with a wealth of knowledge, and don't walk away where they've signed a contract where they've basically given away land that may be worth millions of dollars, and have a development that the congregation or the community can't access due to its affordability levels. 

David Bowers  07:00 

Council member, staying with you -- leading that charge to get the city to make this investment, did you get any sort of pushback, either within city government or even outside of city government? And how did you make that case?  

David Bowers  07:11 

Part of this, you know, this conversation that we're having here on the podcast is really thinking about the movement, how this movement has grown and how we can help casemake and tell the story in such a way that we can continue to build this movement for impact when we talk about faith-based development writ large. So in city of Charlotte, how did you make that case to get the uh city to make the investment that you just described? 

Lawana Mayfield  07:31 

Honestly, I am thankful that it was not a hard lift. Our religious community has stepped into this role many years ago, with identifying land, and then working through our housing trust fund, which is a fund that we put on the ballot every other year, 

Lawana Mayfield  07:49 

and the community supports. In 2024, the community supported a $100 million investment through our Housing Trust Fund. So to be able to present to the community -- look, we know that housing affordability and accessibility is a challenge. We had the ability to have those ARPA dollars. Those were one-time usage. So through those ARPA dollars, we identified the first $1.5 million. 

Lawana Mayfield  08:15 

And then we were able, in 2024 and then 2025, when I presented to my council -- which is, we make up a body of 11, it takes a minimum of six votes to approve or deny -- there was no pushback. There was actually a lot of encouragement and support of adding the additional 1 million to give us a budget line item for that $2.5 million. 

Lawana Mayfield  08:38 

And that helped us to move not only our policy language forward, but it also helped -- for not only my colleagues, but for the community to see that we're putting the money where we say our values lie. And that is making sure there is housing accessibility for all of our residents here, and those that may be coming into the Charlotte area. 

David Bowers  09:01 

Vicky, we know there's a lot of conversation about housing affordability, and the challenges of meeting the housing needs in our country, and that a lot of the work is going to have to take place at the state and local level, right -- we need support from the federal government, obviously, but a lot of things are happening at the state and local level. 

David Bowers  09:20 

When we think about faith-based development, and some of the barriers that we've talked about, right -- can you talk a little bit about what you've seen, you and your team and your research, about some of the innovative approaches around the country, at the state or local level, to removing or reducing some of those barriers to faith-based development? 

Vicki Been  09:41 

Sure. I mean, about nine states have passed or considered what we call faith-based affordable housing acts, or sometimes they're called Yes In God's Backyard acts. And those acts tend to say: on land owned by a faith-based organization, you get a bonus for how much you could build. You may get relief from things like minimum parking requirements, height restrictions, those kinds of things. 

Vicki Been  10:09 

And that's crucial, because that allows a faith-based organization to build as of right, rather than having to go through a long and uncertain public hearing process, and the delay that involves. 

David Bowers  10:09 

Vicky, have you seen any trends -- you and your team, and what you've seen with how it's happened at the state and local level -- what has been the key to some of the success of getting those policies enacted? 

David Bowers  10:36 

Have you seen some common trends or themes about what local folks have done to get those things on the books? 

Vicki Been  10:36 

So the faith-based affordable housing acts have really required a coalition -- and it's required a coalition that says, look, we really need affordable housing, and these faith-based organizations have land that could be used for affordable housing. But it's a double-win situation -- 

Vicki Been  11:03 

you both get affordable housing, and you save a community anchor, right, and all of the services and all of the good that it's bringing for the community. New York has seen enormous numbers of congregations have to close, and that leaves a hole in the community -- a very big hole. And so solving both of those problems at the same time is a real win-win. 

David Bowers  11:30 

Director Green, I want to pick up on that -- this notion of the win-win here in Washington, DC. Your department has really been at the forefront, we think, in the region, in terms of investments of dollars, making yourself available in terms of office hours, and also creative approaches, around putting, like, points on RFPs. Say a little bit about, and think to an audience of peers 

David Bowers  11:53 

around the country who may be hopefully listening, watching -- this notion of why the District of Columbia decided to make this kind of investment in faith-based development, and on kind of multiple fronts. 

Colleen Green  12:06 

Well, I think the main reason is the push for affordable housing, right? And when churches have land that is underutilized or not used, then that's a great opportunity to create affordable housing, right -- they already own the land. If they're partners in the development, then you don't have to do an acquisition, which makes the land cost go up. 

Colleen Green  12:29 

So it's a great opportunity, again, to create affordable housing. I think that's one of the things -- what Vicky Been has said about sustaining the community, right -- you can't really have successful affordable housing without having good community, right, and good neighbors. And having a church that's an anchor for affordable housing does incentivize community development. 

Colleen Green  12:54 

And the commitment that a church can have to developing anything around that housing, right -- so whether you need daycare with that, because you have an incentivized population already there that's part of the church community, or that's acting around the community, they can also do that. If they need a grocery store, they can also do that. 

Colleen Green  13:13 

I know that in New York, there was a lot of community development corporations that were started by churches, signifying their commitment to not only doing housing but increasing the benefits that are coming to their community. So that's another reason why -- I want to say -- you get more bang for your buck, because you're doing something in a really consolidated, comprehensive way. 

Colleen Green  13:39 

So you're touching a lot of the points, as well as saving that anchor that the church always is. 

David Bowers  13:39 

Yeah, yeah. It's amazing -- you said something really critical, Director, about the notion of connecting this to even kind of the goals that a local jurisdiction may have, right. And I wonder, Council member, your work in Charlotte -- were there some particular goals that the city had, around, you know, producing X number of new affordable housing units, that you all were able to connect this work around faith-based development to? 

Lawana Mayfield  14:15 

I would definitely say yes. We, under Mayor Lyles, who has been mayor in the city for, I believe, seven or eight terms at this point -- there was definitely a commitment around diverse price-point housing, how we look at where development is going. And I definitely agree that when we think about religious institutions, and we think about the role that they play in community -- whether that is the feeding program, or the after-school program, or preschool, or even the reimagining of space inside of that building to become an incubator -- 

Lawana Mayfield  14:56 

when we're looking at what we say -- in Charlotte, a 10-minute neighborhood, where you have access to employment, to training, to multiple public transportation options as well as entertainment -- that institution is that anchor piece for getting access to moving about around the city. So we wanted to make sure, and we're still in the process of attempting to make sure, that throughout the city of almost a million residents -- just in Charlotte proper, over a million 

Lawana Mayfield  15:29 

when you add in Charlotte-Mecklenburg, which is our county -- that we are diversifying where housing is going, because the other conversation that we have to have during this is that we don't want to be the ones that reconcentrate poverty. So when we talk about affordability, and we talk about workforce and lower-income housing, that cannot be concentrated in one or two districts, or one or two wards. It needs to be diversified throughout the entire city, especially in our areas that may see more wealth, in order to balance the amenities and the accessibility to work as well as play. 

Breakthroughs and the Rise of YIGBY 

David Bowers  16:09 

You know, Vicky, I want to pick up on where the Council member was there, in terms of this notion of -- there's been, obviously, this growing movement, you alluded to it earlier, Vicky, around kind of Yes In God's Backyard, YIGBY as it's been called, legislation around the country. Say a little bit, Vicky, about the land-use component, the zoning component, and how, from a policy standpoint, elected officials, government officials can think about land use and how to activate faith on land, in a way that can further public policy goals and aims -- around, like the Councilman was talking about, the deconcentration of poverty, making sure people have more access to amenities, 

David Bowers  16:54 

higher-opportunity areas and the like. So anything, Vicky, you'd like to speak to on that? 

Vicki Been  16:54 

Yeah, I think it's really a critical question, because often the answer is, we'll just upzone, right -- give people a little bit more FAR, or floor area ratio, or floor area rights, in order to develop. But often, in especially areas that haven't had a lot of affordable housing that the Council member was talking about, you've got low-density areas with height restrictions, and parking requirements, and sideyard requirements, and a whole plethora of things. 

Vicki Been  17:32 

And so you've got to really pay attention to every single one of them, right? It's so hard to develop housing, it's so costly today, and costs are going up, that you have to pare away everything that's not absolutely essential in order to get housing that can be affordable, right. And so you've got to pay attention to all of those different elements, and you've got to pay attention to the process. 

Vicki Been  17:57 

Right, if the process is discretionary, that means it takes a lot of time and imposes a lot of risk. So the more that you can make things as of right -- here's what you can do, religious organization, on your land, go for it -- the better off we all are. 

David Bowers  18:04 

Vicky -- and, David, yeah go ahead -- 

Colleen Green  18:04 

I would love to add that, when we think about the YIGBY-style policy changes and our timeline, it helps to reduce the uncertainty, which is one of the biggest risks in development. 

Colleen Green  18:29 

We have faster timelines, which basically equals lower carrying costs and more viable projects. And we lower the upfront costs, which makes it easier for the organizations to even get started. 

David Bowers  18:29 

Council member, you talked about the timelines -- I like to refer to it as the HOV lane, right, for faith-based projects. So I'm curious if any of you all would like to say a word more about the importance of that, the timeline, kind of what we can do, what jurisdictions can do who may be considering this, to expedite, right -- 

David Bowers  19:02 

the process, and how important that is, to address the timelines. Director, you want to speak on that? 

Colleen Green  19:02 

Absolutely. From -- I mean, I think what I understand from the history of DC zoning laws, I think we had 1954 laws that are still on the books. And then we had a change in 2016, and there's some still-1954 laws that we're having to deal with. 

Colleen Green  19:23 

So I think there's an opportunity there to do some YIGBYs in DC as of right, as well as, you know, the permit process, right -- that's also very costly. And if -- for developments that include, or that are faith-based -- maybe figuring out a fast track for that, because it should not be over-complicated on a church site. 

Colleen Green  19:50 

Right, so I think that's also another opportunity, as well as updating the zoning laws as of right around faith-based communities, and doing exemptions that make sense, and that fit, again, the model for that congregation. So I think one of the things that's really important is -- if you are serving your congregation, if you have seniors or you have families and things like that, that's a great lane to stay in, because you're set with a population, a market to fill the units. 

Colleen Green  20:26 

And if you can sort of match that as a rationale for fast-tracking a project, that makes all the sense in the world. 

David Bowers  20:26 

But yeah, I agree with both of these points. Yep. And Vicky, I want to ask you, wearing both your research hat and also as a leader in New York City, right, Housing Department as well -- 

David Bowers  20:49 

your experiences -- has there been pushback to the notion of granting houses of worship kind of expedited permitting approvals, or by-right development? Has there been any sort of pushback out there? And again, thinking about people who may be listening to this, saying, oh, you know what, we think we want to try to do that in our jurisdiction -- kind of, here are the arguments that you need to be prepared to address 

David Bowers  21:15 

if you're going to try to posit that as something that ought to be done in your jurisdiction. 

Vicki Been  21:15 

It's a great question. I mean, you will always hear pushback for housing, no matter almost any time. But the arguments that we hear from communities are: we don't want to fast-track, we want to make sure that we've fully considered all of the environmental impacts, and fully thought all that through, and done a parking study and a traffic congestion study, and all of that -- all of which takes a lot of time and a lot of money. And then, on the other side, you face sometimes the housing agencies that are saying, 

Vicki Been  21:54 

look, this is a relatively small site, we're only going to get four affordable units or 20 affordable units, and we're going to spend the same amount of time on that that we would on a place that will give us 100 units -- why should we do the smaller when we could do the larger? Right. 

Vicki Been  22:13 

And so you get both of those reactions. And I think one of the -- at least in New York -- a key issue is that a lot of sites are small, they're infill, they're a small congregation, a small church. And we need ways to make that work as quickly as possible, otherwise you just can't afford it -- 

David Bowers  22:37 

yeah, it just doesn't pencil. 

Colleen Green  22:37 

Go ahead -- I also think that, as I'm sitting here listening, I think that as we try to create homeownership opportunities, faith-based land is a great way to do that, because, again, there's congregations in place with families that you can also give homebuyer education and buyer's education, and prepare them for the homes that would be built on the land, giving them the opportunity to buy affordable homes, 

Colleen Green  23:03 

and they stay within that congregation and community. So I think that's also a great opportunity for exemption, as cities think about it -- if you're building homeownership, you know, a duplex with an owner's unit and rental on it. That I think is a really great opportunity as well. So you become a homeowner, a landlord, and you also create affordable units above it. 

David Bowers  23:26 

That's a great model for faith-based land. I want to stay with Director Green for a minute, and Council member and Vicky, I'm going to come to you all on this as well. So I've seen you in action, in terms of creativity and thinking innovatively about how to engage faith community. And what I mean by that is, in some of the meetings we've been in with you and your team, with office hours, where you challenge folks in those meetings in a good way, right -- 

David Bowers  23:51 

hey, have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? So what you're speaking to also is this notion of localities trying to be creative -- hey, we've got a homeownership goal, hey, we've got these folks over here with land, let's think about how we might activate that. Can you say a word about how important it is for jurisdictions, states, local governments, and others in the ecosystem to be creative, to be innovative, and what that might actually lead to -- kind of the benefits, the community impact that could come from that? 

Colleen Green  24:19 

Yeah, I mean, I definitely think thinking outside the box is really important, particularly as costs are rising and everything is so much more expensive. Utility costs are going up, just everything is expensive. And it's so hard to keep costs down -- because the churches own the land, and that land cost is kind of something that you can take out of the equation, because they've owned the land for so long. Even using innovative construction types that you haven't used before -- whether you're doing modular, or just different things to make it faster -- I mean, this is a real opportunity that churches have, to do things that are innovative, to kind of test the waters and try 

Colleen Green  25:03 

different models of things. And rental is not always it, right -- like homeownership. And if you need to do a homeowners' association fee, to keep, you know, the church going and keep it alive and in the community, there's opportunity there. So just thinking of different rental streams or income streams that can happen as you're creating a development -- it doesn't all have to be one thing, it could be mixed use. 

Colleen Green  25:28 

It can be homeownership, rental, or a combination of rental and homeownership -- really kind of focusing on what's needed in that community, or what you're willing to do, and what is the sort of planning goals of that community, or the goals of the locality, and how you can contribute. One of the things that we try to do in DC is have access to affordable housing in high-income areas, right -- 

Colleen Green  25:55 

there's a lot of churches in high-income areas that have not done anything with their land, and their congregations are also maybe not as strong as they once were, and that's also an opportunity. So yeah, definitely trying to think outside the box creatively in every aspect is a great opportunity. 

David Bowers  26:15 

Yeah, it's interesting -- I always say to people, you know, suburban, urban, rural, red state, blue state, purple state -- you have houses of worship in every part of the country, right? 

David Bowers  26:23 

Poor areas, high-opportunity, wealthier areas, everything in between. Council Member Mayfield, you want to say a word about the importance of local government leaders being creative and innovative, when you're thinking about leaning into this space around faith-based development, and what could potentially be the kind of impact that could come from that? 

Lawana Mayfield  26:42 

Well, I would say it first starts with us listening to community, and not government coming in with a plan of what it is that we think would work. 

Lawana Mayfield  26:51 

Our role is to walk side by side. So, you think about the conversation of homeownership -- one of the things, one of the programs that we've recently introduced, are accessory dwelling units, so ADUs. So that single-family home, depending on the size of the lot, may be big enough where they could put an 800-to-1,000-square-foot home on that land, 

Lawana Mayfield  27:14 

that's a separate unit that very well could be rental capacity -- it could be a mother-in-law suite, it could be for a college student coming back home, or it could be a rental in the community. So at this point we're really looking at any and all options that are viable, as well as looking at our policy language -- because at the end of the day, if we're making it difficult for that development to happen, and recognizing that our policy language has created some of the barriers, we're not helping the situation. 

Lawana Mayfield  27:50 

So what does that look like? It may look like an ADU, it may look like a smaller unit on that property, or it may look like a townhome, or a quad, or a triplex. So how do we make sure that our policies don't assume that organizations are ready to build -- that we're making sure that we have you in a position for you to still learn what you need to learn, and identifying that there's not enough support for the early-stage development, the pre-development part, and the complexities that come along with that. 

Lawana Mayfield  28:22 

How can we be helpful in our policies, and help to ensure that we maneuver -- that we remove some of the challenges that are created when you're trying to move into this space of accessibility, not just affordability. 

This Is the Calling — Rev. Will Green 

David Bowers  28:22 

Council member, appreciate that. Listen, we've been having a great conversation so far, talking about policy at a systems level, but change doesn't happen without people stepping into that space. 

David Bowers  28:50 

And in today's This Is the Calling segment, Reverend Will Ed Green shares a powerful testimony about how his church took on not only development in Montgomery County, Maryland, but advocacy as well. 

Rev. Will Green  29:06 

We wanted to build a coalition of people to have a conversation, not just about our project, but the way that it might inspire exponential housing development by other houses of worship, and how we might facilitate that -- as long as we were values-aligned. And for us, those values really centered on making practical reparations for the ways that we had benefited from and participated in the historically racist zoning policies and practices here in Montgomery County. 

Rev. Will Green  29:31 

So we pulled together a group of 23 faith leaders representing six different faith traditions and seven different denominations to have a conversation about what the values we would want to see reflected in a zoning text amendment would look like, and worked together to help get it passed here in the county. I'm excited to say that our congregation will be the first, or one of the first, to use that zoning text amendment to build 123 units of rental housing and 12 affordable-for-purchase townhomes here on our campus in downtown Silver Spring. 

Rev. Will Green  30:00 

We are partnering with Enterprise on the development of those units, so it's especially exciting to be here today. 

David Bowers  30:08 

As you can see, faith communities can do more than just work within the rules -- they can help rewrite them. And Enterprise is excited to partner with Silver Spring United Methodist Church to develop new homes. Now let's jump back into our discussion. Council member Mayfield, why are faith leaders uniquely positioned to influence housing policy? 

Faith Leaders as Policy Advocates 

Lawana Mayfield  30:31 

First and foremost, they are the trusted voices in our communities. They see housing instability firsthand, with those that come through their doors needing assistance, needing guidance, needing a home, a refuge. And they often already serve the populations that are most impacted. 

David Bowers  30:31 

And let me ask you, Vicki -- let me ask you this again, wearing kind of multiple hats -- one of the things we've heard over the years, and you hear talked about, which is real, the declining numbers of folks who attend houses of worship, 

David Bowers  31:07 

right? You hear about kind of maybe the declining strength of the organized church -- and I always say, I'm saying 'church' in quotes, to speak to any faith community, right, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever it may be, Buddhist. So a question for you, Vicky, is this notion of houses of worship as advocates, leaning in on the housing policy -- how are they received? 

David Bowers  31:31 

Right, in your experience -- do they bring, Councilmember Mayfield talked about the clout they bring -- do you think that carries true, right, across the country, in all kinds of communities? You know -- yes, no, maybe so -- and if not so much, are there things that faith communities can do more, to be effective? 

Vicki Been  31:54 

I think absolutely. 

Vicki Been  31:54 

The faith-based organizations are considered to be trustworthy, they are considered to be mission-driven, and reasonable about the different kinds of issues that may come up. I think they're also regarded as creative, right -- you see churches doing all kinds of things, sharing spaces, having their Sunday school rooms be daycare centers during the week, and things like that. 

Vicki Been  32:21 

And so, so they are very valued partners. I think the government worries that, you know, do they have enough expertise, do they have the staying power to stay in what is often a four-to-six-to-eight-year timeline, do they have -- are they going to have enough time to really devote to this kind of project? 

Vicki Been  32:46 

But I think the governments have been good about working with Enterprise, working with others, to provide education, to really show faith-based organizations what's involved and what they should expect. So they go in with eyes wide open. But absolutely, they are trusted messengers in terms of the needs of the community. 

David Bowers  32:46 

Director Green, let me ask you a question about the faith community being advocates for housing policy when they're not working 

David Bowers  33:15 

a specific project. 

David Bowers  33:16 

How important is it for the faith community to be down at, you know, city hall, so to speak, pushing for more, for housing, affordable housing, when it's not just them coming in for their specific project? 

Colleen Green  33:16 

Well, I think it's really important, because I think that what one faith-based organization does affects the other, right? So I think that being united in voice about this movement, to have affordable housing development on their sites, and other issues that affect them, is really important. 

Colleen Green  33:47 

And, you know, when there's -- it's like putting a fist together, they're more powerful together. So advocating on a number of issues is important. And I think faith-based communities, pastors, reverends, leaders of the church, are really trusted voices. When they speak, they come from a moral underpinning, and people can't dispute that -- like, what is their motivation? 

Colleen Green  34:12 

It's to generally help. I mean, that's what they're there for, and for that reason they're trusted, and they should advocate. I do want to say that one of the things, as government is putting policy together, it's also important for investors to come into play and partner with that, right -- like, lenders and investors also should get used to having faith-based clients, and figuring out what that underwriting should be, because that helps the policy along as well, and how they would be willing to invest, 

Colleen Green  34:46 

and what a faith-based development needs to look like, and make that really clear and plain, because sometimes it's not clear what a lender or investor would be comfortable with, from a faith-based position. And I think that it would be great if, like we have community development organizations and banks, they should have a faith-based-initiative organization, where they're looking for this product. 

Colleen Green  35:10 

This is really a movement and a product, to create housing, whether it's mixed-income, affordable housing, what have you -- really, you know, financial institutions should create a department just focused on that, you know. 

David Bowers  35:10 

And Colleen, help people understand too -- when we talk about faith-based development, typically the house of worship is going to have an established development partner. 

David Bowers  35:33 

And when they come in like that, from an underwriting standpoint, from an investment standpoint, how much is government looking at, or a private investor looking at, the congregation versus the development partner -- or is it kind of a 50/50? 

Colleen Green  35:33 

We're looking at all the above. We're looking at both, yeah, right, because you have to have a development partner that has the expertise and know-how, 

Colleen Green  35:54 

and in some cases you might want their guarantee on it, depending on how involved they are. And also the congregation -- I think the congregation, the church, the board, should have a committee, if they don't have a CDC set aside, or a community development corporation set aside, to do this, that is focused on just this, right, so that they're committed for the long haul. 

Colleen Green  36:15 

They're meeting on a regular basis about what the timeline is, how this happens, that they're getting educated, they're going to conferences, they're meeting on a regular basis with their development team, the consultants, and everybody involved, and they're advocating all the time with the policymakers, the politicians, to make sure -- because there's a capital stack that has to be built as well. 

Colleen Green  36:38 

Right, it's not just the financing that comes from the lender, but in order to create affordability, you may have to have a slug of money that comes from the council member, right, you may have to have a slug of money that comes from the government. So that advocacy also needs to be part of that plan. 

David Bowers  36:57 

Yeah. The beloved capital stack -- the beloved capital stack. 

David Bowers  37:00 

So I want to ask Vicki a question on the moral side, and Council member, ask you something in terms of the building of capacity -- Director talked about it in terms of these associated entities with the houses of worship. So, Council Member, I'm going to actually start with you. How important is it -- when the government has looked at building the capacity of these congregations, the notion of, we want to make sure we support them in their efforts, 

David Bowers  37:27 

if they're trying to create community development corporations or affiliated entities that can be partners in development -- what's been the approach in Charlotte with that? 

Lawana Mayfield  37:27 

So we really rely on our faith institutions to lead that particular conversation, because all congregations are not the same. Some have different levels of leadership, some of the leadership is within that church home, some -- you think of the Catholic diocese -- 

Lawana Mayfield  37:54 

you need to have -- there are multiple levels of conversation before you can decide to do anything with that land. So the -- the city of Charlotte has the Housing and Neighborhood Services Department, and we have our Housing and Neighborhood Services staff and director of housing. We are there to assist them with their application for the CDC, but they are the ones who are leading the conversation of creating what they believe, that the congregation as well as the community -- 

Lawana Mayfield  38:26 

so our support will also help you identify the survey that you need to distribute amongst the congregation, as well as the neighborhood, to identify the support, and to help you learn how to interview, to create that board for the CDC, because you need a strong board that has the relationships and the connections, because, again, that capital stack can be a barrier. 

Lawana Mayfield  38:50 

So you need those banking executives to be a part of your internal conversations, and have their buy-in to help get into certain rooms. But we really attempt to walk side by side with our community, versus government coming in, because we've done that -- we've done that for decades. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't. We're really being conscious and intentional to walk alongside our religious institutions, in order for them to tell us what is it that you need, and how can we help fill that gap. 

David Bowers  39:25 

Yeah, critical piece. Vicky, I want to ask you about the moral case vis-a-vis the economic case, right. So when we think about the notion of faith-based development, growing this industry, growing this ecosystem, how important is it -- the Director talked about kind of the moral underpinnings of this -- how important is it for the moral case to be made for investing in kind of faith-based development, versus the economics of it all, 

David Bowers  39:55 

right, and just kind of the practical economics when thinking about case-making in this field? 

Vicki Been  39:55 

Well, I think both are necessary. And faith-based organizations are, of course, very trusted on the moral issues, and very able to talk -- as the Councilmember was saying earlier, they are the ones who are seeing people in need and people in distress, and so they can give a very good account of what the needs are, and our obligations as fellow human beings to help in that situation, 

Vicki Been  40:27 

right, but at the same time they also have to make the economic case -- that this is good for the community, it's good for the city as a whole, not to have people in distress, not to have people leaving the city because they can't afford it, not to have, obviously, homelessness or other unhoused situations, or unsupported situations. So you have to make both the moral case and the economic case -- that keeping faith-based organizations in the community is a good economic argument, as well as a good moral argument. 

Vicki Been  41:02 

Having them provide affordable housing, use their land for affordable housing, is both a moral issue and makes all kinds of economic sense. 

Case Studies and What's Next 

David Bowers  41:02 

And when we talk about -- let's talk about some of the case studies and models of actual development happening, right. And we know that congregations have been doing -- faith-based entities, houses of worship, have been doing development for hundreds of years in different ways, 

David Bowers  41:26 

but there's this notion that the movement and ecosystem is really kind of growing and emerging. Director, maybe I'll start with you -- are there some projects or examples of efforts around supporting development by houses of worship that you're looking at, and that you would suggest others look at -- be it private investors, local governments, whoever it may be -- to say, look, there are models and examples of how this is working, and could work, and could be potentially scaled? 

Colleen Green  41:53 

There are -- there are a few. I mean, I don't know if I want to -- there's one in particular, on Georgia Avenue, Emory Beacon of Light. I mean, that's a good case study. It has a significant number of affordable units. It had a lot of challenges along the way. There was a lot of 

Colleen Green  42:12 

sort of fear from the congregation, fits and starts -- and I think, but they got through it, and I think that they had some planning issues. There was this historical berm -- who knew what a berm was, right? Like, it was built on a berm, like a little hill, and they suddenly needed to preserve this hill. So it was, you know, that's a good example of sticking to it, 

Colleen Green  42:32 

but it's also an example of being able to pivot, right, when things don't go as planned. But we have a number of organizations that have done some good work in terms of affordable housing development on their sites in Washington, DC -- you know, we call that in the business a tease, because Reverend Joe Daniels will be on one of our future episodes of the podcast, 

Colleen Green  43:01 

from Emory. So, well, that's a good tease for that episode coming up. I think one thing that's really important is: when a faith-based organization doesn't do this on a regular basis, 

Colleen Green  43:14 

you do have to build in some contingency, 

Colleen Green  43:17 

right, because this is not what they do, right, and again, so we go to who the partners are. 

Colleen Green  43:22 

And I think that when the federally qualified health centers, for example, started, 

Colleen Green  43:28 

there were CDFIs that started around them, 

Colleen Green  43:32 

and organizations that started up to lend to them, to put together the models for them. And I think that, you know, if we are moving toward this direction with more faith-based-initiative kind of development, that should come about as well, so that there are models about how do you check the box. 

Colleen Green  43:50 

You know, there's different organizations that do this -- I remember, for example, I spent some time in New York City and we did development around housing, affordable homeownership programs, and we also did projects where new developers were the developers doing that work. And it was literally, this is what you do -- first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth. 

Colleen Green  44:13 

And laying out that program does help to reduce challenges, right, or unnecessary cost, because eventualities happen that were unpredicted. So that's something that I think is an opportunity -- to just kind of put that pool together, and get a CDFI that completely focuses on faith-based initiatives, and pool that money just for them. 

David Bowers  44:41 

A CDFI that focuses on faith-based work. 

Colleen Green  44:41 

I'll call some people at Enterprise and see what they might be thinking about that. Right, right. 

David Bowers  44:44 

Vicky, let me ask you this, in terms of this notion of scaling, and how policy may play a role in that. When we think about policy, are there ways that we ought to be thinking about how policy investments may help us scale, 

David Bowers  45:06 

and going to a different level in the way the Director kind of alluded to -- are there ideas, things that you've seen out there as potential models, or ideas you have about how that might be helpful? 

Vicki Been  45:18 

So one problem that we're really having with a lot of our faith-based organizations in New York is that their piece of land is pretty small. 

Vicki Been  45:26 

And so it's hard to develop that -- you're not getting the economies of scale that you might get with a bigger site. So how can we combine -- and say, you know, issue an RFP that says, look, I have four smallish churches in this neighborhood that want to use their land for affordable housing, come in and do all of them, 

Vicki Been  45:49 

right, in a way that gives you those economies of scale, that makes it much more economical to build. We've tried that -- the city of New York has tried that -- with some small lots and irregularly shaped lots, and it needs more work to make the model function. But those are the kinds of things we need to be thinking about. 

Vicki Been  46:12 

Right, we could also be thinking about, could we use modular for some of the homes that we would put on a church lot, can we have financing that allows just one closing rather than four, in my example -- those kinds of things. You just have to think, point by point by point, every step of the process, and try to figure out how we can make this work for the kinds of land that we have available. 

David Bowers  46:41 

Yep. And Council member, I want to come to you on that notion of thinking intentionally -- in a way Vicki's alluding to, right -- an intentionality about thinking about all that it might take in Charlotte. Have you seen anything starting to emerge in the conversations about, hey, the city government is making this investment, the city government is thinking about how to support faith community? 

David Bowers  47:04 

Are you hearing conversations from the private sector, or from houses of worship, or denominational entities who are saying, you know what, we may want to get in on that, because the city is putting some skin in the game -- is that investment attracting other investment, or at least some conversations about potential additional investment? 

Lawana Mayfield  47:25 

So I'm gonna say yes, but I am going to also ask you to give me some grace, because I have to highlight the fact that we have one of those case studies that I want the world to know about, and that is Easter's Homes, and what their motto is -- 'Where God Is Moving Us,' 

Lawana Mayfield  47:45 

and it's through Caldwell Presbyterian. And you can always go to our website, Faith and Housing at cityofcharlotte.gov, to see others. That is how the conversation moves forward. When we first kicked off the conversation, it started with a summit. That summit happened -- we had more than 300 religious institutions come together. We had more than 90 different types of institutions of faith come together, which was unheard of in the city of Charlotte, 

Lawana Mayfield  48:21 

to have that many different faiths come into a room to have a discussion. From the moment we started the conversation and community learned that the city of Charlotte was not only taking this commitment seriously by having a financial line in our budget specifically for faith and housing, but we really -- it accelerated once we identified the partnership with Enterprise, and the community saw that we were very serious about this commitment. 

Lawana Mayfield  48:55 

I can be at the local store, I have been at the gas station, I have been at church community events outside of my own church, and people have come up and said, hey, my church has 15 acres, we would love to be a part of this conversation, how do we get -- hear about it? Oh, I read an article where they were talking about this faith and housing -- 

Lawana Mayfield  49:19 

what is that about? I've had bishops and religious leaders reach out to me directly, or reach out to my office, wanting to learn how they can be a part of this conversation. So I recognize that we are truly blessed here in Charlotte, because the faith community, it feels like, has basically just been waiting on us to pull the trigger, and for us to create policy language and to show commitment. 

Lawana Mayfield  49:45 

And now they are asking, how can they get involved? What can they do? My church has land, we want to be a part of this conversation, what's the next step? It has been nothing but support. I have not had one institution that I've reached out to, or that my staff has reached out to, that has not shown interest in wanting to be a part of this conversation. 

David Bowers  50:07 

It's been exciting to see local governments -- the spread of local governments getting into this space with investments -- here in Washington, DC, Charlotte, New York has done it, Chattanooga, Tennessee -- we're seeing more and more local governments looking at either passing laws that will help facilitate faith-based development, and/or investing dollars, and that notion of money attracts money, right, 

David Bowers  50:29 

or policy change, and people saying, oh wait, this makes sense. And so this -- the whole premise of Radical Common Sense, right, is that there's so much land, so much potential, here to have impact in community. Director Green, I want to go to you with this notion of, as we look ahead -- and we've got a couple minutes left here -- but as we look ahead, is there something that's not happening in the policy space that you say, hey, if I was queen for a day, or had the magic wand, this is one thing I would make sure, or these are one or two things that I would make sure are done at the local level 

David Bowers  51:02 

across the country, that could really help open up successful faith-based development. 

Colleen Green  51:07 

I think, further prioritization of this work is really, really important. More laws, more exceptions for the zoning and for the permitting. Also just a standalone pool of dollars, just to work on faith-based properties and developments. Maybe it's a fund that is both private and public, that can be managed and worked on, so that faith-based organizations can apply specifically for that fund of money, whether it be for pre-development costs. 

Colleen Green  51:48 

I think the pre-development cost is the hardest part of that, and then getting ready to apply for other funding sources. We kind of have an Ornamenta Newsome Fund. It's not funded enough -- it's a nonprofit fund, you would have to form a nonprofit in order to enter it. But something like that, to help with pre-development costs and upfront cost. 

Colleen Green  52:09 

And again, what everything that Enterprise is doing is really great with their faith-based initiative -- connecting organizations, and with faith-based communities and pastors, about how to lead, but also organizational structure within the church, right, about how to make this happen. Maybe it's not that one deacon, but it's a group, it's a board -- what structure works, and also the why. 

Colleen Green  52:37 

Right, the why is really important. So yes, we want to have development on our site, but is the church dying, or are you doing this to bring the congregation back? Like, what is the new role after this? And I think that's really important, as we talk about the moral push, the economic push, the sustainability, right, because once the building is built, we want to make sure that it's preserved, 

Colleen Green  53:03 

it's maintained. Who are those people that are really going to be there, ongoing, right, for the life of the project? So those are some of the things. 

David Bowers  53:09 

Oh, that's great. Appreciate that. Listen, I hope people who are listening will really kind of dig into those real, specific recommendations. And I know the good folks at Rooted Good, for example, are doing some analysis -- 

David Bowers  53:22 

they've gotten some funding to look at what a national pool of capital might look like, and the importance of public and private money going in. I know in the District, the District put in money, Wells Fargo put in dollars that helped support some of these. Council member, I'm going to ask you to do, as an elected official, something we should never ask, 

David Bowers  53:38 

but you've got seconds to give us the last word. If you were queen for a day, if you had the magic wand, what would you say should be happening around the country to further faith-based development? 

Lawana Mayfield  53:38 

I am -- Thanos, and it is: streamlined zoning pathways for faith-based housing, more funding for pre-development and technical assistance, clearer guidance and support for first-time developers like the congregation, and actually policies that encourage partnerships rather than working in silos. 

David Bowers  54:11 

Well, they say preachers always have three last words. So, Vicki, I'm actually going to give you the last word, and say, if you had that, what would you do and recommend? 

Vicki Been  54:11 

I think the key thing is: make as much as possible as-of-right, so that you know what you're getting into, you know that you're going to be able to build what you want to build, and you don't have a lot of process where risks are around every corner. 

Vicki Been  54:33 

Right, so I think those are key. Funding is really important -- not just pre-development, but all of the thinking that a church needs to do about exactly the kinds of issues that the Director was raising: why are we doing this, what's our mission here, what do we really need in order to be able to do this? So I think all of those things are critically important, but let's make it easier. 

Closing Reflection 

Vicki Been  54:58 

Let's make it more certain. 

David Bowers  54:58 

That's Vicki Been from the NYU Furman Center -- I want to thank her. I want to thank Council member Lawana Mayfield from the great city of Charlotte, North Carolina, and from right here in the nation's capital, Director of Housing Colleen Green. Thank you all for being with us here today. Listen -- if land is the opportunity and community is the purpose, policy is the pathway that connects them. 

David Bowers  55:22 

Today's conversation shows that changing the rules isn't just about regulation -- it's about expanding what's possible for communities that have long carried the vision but oftentimes lack the tools. Faith communities are proving that advocacy can be an extension of ministry, shaping systems so that compassion isn't limited to what happens inside the four walls. My friends, stay radical. 

David Bowers  55:48 

To join the growing movement around faith-based development, please visit enterprisecommunity.org/FBDI and sign up for our email list to get access to news, resources, and opportunities from across the country.