Radical Common Sense with David Bowers

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Unknown
Welcome to Radical Common Sense, a masterclass in faith based development. I'm your host, David Bowers. This is where faith meets action and community power becomes real solutions.

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We turn principles into blueprints and show how faith institutions can transform what they already have into what communities truly need. Since launching Enterprise Community Partners Faith based Development Initiative in 2006, the vision has been clear. Partner with the faith community to expand housing and community facilities that serve low and moderate income communities, support equitable procurement, strengthen neighborhood anchor institutions, and help nurture a national movement far bigger than any one organization.

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Unknown
Because the opportunity is massive, houses of worship across America own an estimated 2.6 million acres of land, enough to potentially create over 800,000 new homes red state, blue state, purple state, urban, suburban and rural. And yet the need is just as urgent. More than 700,000 Americans are homeless. 1 in 5 renters pay more than half of what they make for rent.

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19 million people live in healthy food deserts, and half of Americans live in childcare deserts. At the same time, expected between 2015 and 20, 30 100,000 houses of worship may close need meet opportunity. This is what I call radical commonsense radical because it's bold. It goes to the root and common sense because what is necessary is staring us in the face.

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As my late father used to say, surely we can do better than this. This is about scaling real solutions with the faith community as essential partners, not theory, but action. This is radical common sense, a masterclass in faith based development.

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Unknown
Today we begin at the foundation, the moral case for housing. So the question is simple but profound. What happens when faith communities see housing and impact beyond their walls as not just charity, but as a calling is there a moral and theological imperative for houses of worship to consider how they may activate the land they steward for broader community impact?

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Unknown
I'm honored to be joined by three leaders who are helping shape this conversation across the country. Reverend William Lamar, pastor of Metropolitan AME Church in Washington, DC, is a leading voice on faith, justice, and community building. A participant in Enterprise's faith based development initiative, he's leading an effort to transform underused church land into housing with wraparound services to serve unhoused veterans and provide them with support, stability and dignity.

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Reverend Doctor Howard John Wesley, pastor of Alfred Street Baptist Church

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Alexandria, Virginia, is an internationally recognized leader in ministry and economic empowerment. His church is developing a four story community with new affordable homes in Old Town Alexandria, while also helping pay rental arrears charges for more than 450 families, helping them avoid eviction through its Sikh Spiritual Fast initiative during the Lenten season.

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Unknown
And joining us remotely, Reverend Jasmine Smothers, senior pastor of Atlanta First United Methodist Church, recognized as a leader at the intersection of faith policy and social impact after challenging her congregation to think big, the church is endeavoring to transform downtown land into a 20 storey residential tower, turning sacred land in the sacred housing. Welcome to the show.

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Unknown
For many traditions, serving the community. Is that the heart of what it means to be a community of faith, practicing what it means to to live as people who have conviction.

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Unknown
And as the country grapples with a worsening housing crisis, we're seeing more and more, faith community seek to see how they can respond. And I think a question for us today here is, how can we move this conversation about housing and community development for the faith community beyond something that is nice to consider to something that we must consider our call to consider?

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Unknown
So, Reverend Smothers, I want to start with you. When you think about housing through a faith lens, what teachings or principles immediately come to mind? And are there some biblical groundings that kind of informed your thinking? How you approach this work? Absolutely. As people of faith, we start, with the biblical underpinnings. And for us in Atlanta and at Atlanta, first, we started in Jeremiah 29.

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Unknown
Most people of faith know Jeremiah 29 and 11. I know the plans I have for you, but they're instructions that come before we get to the plans that God has for us. And those instructions include in Jeremiah 29 seven, seek the welfare of the city. Seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord for its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare.

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Unknown
And this is an important and critical underpinning when we think about housing through faith, because if we don't help house people, we are derelict at our duty to even bring people anywhere near abundant life. Housing has, is the critical underpinning for folks to be able to even begin to think about the abundant life that Jesus Christ has given to us.

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Unknown
And we found as people sleep on the steps of our church in downtown Atlanta as we lost, some folks while they were sleeping to violence or, and to, medical conditions that were unattended to, while they died on our steps. We understood we had to do something more, that smartcards and groceries were not enough, that keeping the utilities on were not enough.

00:06:43:08 - 00:07:12:16
Unknown
Because in the state of Georgia, if you have, if you are evicted, then you cannot qualify for, low income housing for several years. So we knew that we had to get in the middle of this in order for people to experience their own welfare, in order for the church to experience its great welfare, and in order for the entire community to be transformed in the beginning to be able to experience abundant life.

00:07:12:18 - 00:07:36:16
Unknown
Doctor West, let me ask you, picking up on where this notion of hearing Reverend Smothers, it almost sounds like the healing at the gate called beautiful, right? Folks? Coming in and out of worship, but stepping over folks who are in need. When you thought about the work at Alfred Street, what was it in terms of kind of that moral and biblical grounding that you reached in to, to kind of lead the church into thinking this is something that we need to do?

00:07:36:20 - 00:07:58:02
Unknown
Yeah. I think there are two things that pushes that direction. One is just our understanding that this is justice work that we don't gather as a church family just to praise and to sing amazing Grace and to pray and walk out. Howard Thurman once said that the power of prayer is directly connected to your willingness to be part of God's answer.

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Unknown
So whatever we're praying about, we have to avail ourselves to want to do to get involved. And as part of our witness to the world, and I think once people care about those outside of the church, and once they understand that worship and a relationship with the Lord is not just about personal piety, but about impacting the world for Christ, I think it becomes an easy, an easy push for us as a church.

00:08:20:21 - 00:08:41:16
Unknown
When we saw the opportunity, as you said, once, the opportunities there, the hearts already molded and motivated to want to seize that because we have a chance to really make a difference, even if it's just in one person's life. Yep, it. Reverend Lamar, you and the church at Metropolitan, the heart of Washington, D.C., looking to build housing for unhoused veterans.

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Unknown
Right? When you kicked off this initiative, did you have to do a lot of teaching? And I think about what Doctor Wesley said in terms of the notion of justice. Right. How did that play into going beyond charity, into a justice calling? When you thought about, leading the church into this charge? So two things. First, theologians and those who look critically at the text are reminding us that the word we translated salvation might be better translated as liberation or as community safety.

00:09:14:20 - 00:09:36:17
Unknown
So we think about doing the work of housing. It is the work of salvation. This is not something that begins in the by and by. It is now. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth. And so for metropolitan, reaching into our vast historical resources, troops for the Civil War were mustered from one of the congregations that became metropolitan.

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Unknown
So we've always believed in what freedom could look like for us and for all in liberation and salvation include safe housing that lifts up the dignity of all human beings. And because we're in the shadow of the white House, you've got this amazing opulence and crippling poverty in the same space. And we were called not just to observe, but to do something about it.

00:10:00:22 - 00:10:22:07
Unknown
Want to stay there for a minute? That notion that always strikes me about sometimes you have congregations that exist in the midst of need, right? Exist in the midst of a sea of need. And Reverend Smothers, I want to pick back up with what you said down in Atlanta. Did you have much resistance from the congregation when you were doing that teaching?

00:10:22:09 - 00:10:39:11
Unknown
Where folks are saying, this is not what the church is called to do, right. And if you did, how did you teach around that? Again? And kind of tap into the biblical and the kind of moral calling for the church to get folks to say, like, this is indeed the calling of the church.

00:10:39:13 - 00:11:11:07
Unknown
Yes, we I expected actually more resistance than I experienced, but we started with the teaching on vision. Before we reached that the vision was going to be affordable housing, and so the congregation was well able to contribute to this understanding that it was time to do something different. Atlanta first is, is the first Protestant congregation in Atlanta.

00:11:11:09 - 00:11:39:03
Unknown
It helped launch every other Protestant congregation in Atlanta. If you're familiar with Margaret Mitchell and gone with the wind, this is Margaret Mitchell's home church, Grady Hospital, Sheltering Arms, Midtown Assistance Center, all huge justice organizations in the city of Atlanta have come through and out of Atlanta, First United Methodist Church. We have the only bell that Sherman didn't burn when he burns Atlanta.

00:11:39:05 - 00:12:12:07
Unknown
And we housed Confederate soldiers, at First Methodist. And so it was part of our DNA, but also, time for the church to shift in its vision and in the way that it was doing the work of ministry. We did several sermons, series on vision, write the vision, make it plain. And if the vision is delayed, just wait for it because it is to come.

00:12:12:09 - 00:12:35:16
Unknown
And this, so the congregation was really on board with doing something different. We didn't know it was going to be affordable housing until the close of that sermon series, when people were asked to be in deep prayer about what the next steps were and over and over again, the responses we got from the congregation were housing, housing, housing.

00:12:35:16 - 00:13:04:10
Unknown
Nobody else can die here. That Atlanta used to be one of the most affordable cities to live in. It is not now is one of the most unaffordable cities to live in. And here we are sitting at the at the intersection of downtown and midtown Atlanta with 2.8 acres. What better place to to give people a place to live, a place to work, a place to go to school.

00:13:04:15 - 00:13:34:21
Unknown
And right on the Marta line, which is our public transportation in Atlanta at a time in which the need has never been greater. Yeah. And questions have come. And so we continue to go back to the scriptures. We continue to teach people that if we put the Old Testament and the New Testament together, and we take the word righteousness like doctor, Lamar said, and we translate it the way it's supposed to be translated, which is as justice.

00:13:34:23 - 00:13:55:06
Unknown
And we put all that together. Then what we come up with is that God really cares about justice, because justice becomes the most stated word in the biblical text. Yeah. And so we've done a lot of teaching and a lot of learning about what it means to be the church for such a time. Is this it, doctor Wesley?

00:13:55:06 - 00:14:20:16
Unknown
I want to pick up on that where Reverend Smothers was this notion of vision and the vision of home in the tradition, in the biblical tradition is as Alfred Street and the leadership there in Christianity and thinking of multiple face, right across face. What is that vision for, what home means in the faith, and how that informs the calling of the church to church to get involved?

00:14:20:18 - 00:14:42:00
Unknown
Well, clearly, you know, home being the center for family, you know, that's the first place of learning, the development of faith. But I think it's about expanding that home is not just Huxtable, Cliff and Clair family sitting around the dinner table. They have to have a dinner table. They have to have a home. They have to have a roof over their over their head.

00:14:42:05 - 00:15:12:07
Unknown
So when we're talking about growing families and developing children and the ethics of, what we teach at dinner tables, it begins by creating a space where people can actually have that to happen. Home can't simply be church, right? It's not there. But if what we're preaching, teaching, and trying to live in the sanctuary doesn't have a dinner table where it's past on where mothers and fathers and children and friends and family and guests gather, it can't stop at the door of the church.

00:15:12:07 - 00:15:36:08
Unknown
It has to flow into another space. And that space is home, which is a physical space, not just an ideological or some, notion that doesn't have real rooting, but an actual building, an actual roof over someone's head. And if we're not creating those spaces, then what are we doing? Everything we're doing is really in vain in the church because it stops at the church door if there's nowhere for it to land on the table.

00:15:36:08 - 00:16:05:04
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And Reverend Lamar want to go there with you real quick in terms of the notion of home for homeless veterans. And you talked about it earlier, when you've had conversations with the community beyond the walls of the church, what has that conversation been like in terms of why the church feels compelled to do this work, and how you've taught the community that this is the work of the church?

00:16:05:04 - 00:16:29:20
Unknown
First, let me lodge a complaint because you say it real quick for me. You did not say that from my house, but I but, so quick, as real quick as Robert, you. So the first thing I would say is we have to change the notion of what home is away from a kind of capitalist notion that I am building or buying something.

00:16:29:20 - 00:16:51:01
Unknown
For me, it has to be more communal. So if you read Hebrews, Hebrews says that Jesus and others labored for a city, not a house. And the culmination of the text and revelation speaks of a new Jerusalem, a new city, a place where all persons, all tongues, all nations can dwell. Now, how does that work with veterans housing?

00:16:51:03 - 00:17:08:21
Unknown
You have to lift your vision beyond what is best for your nuclear family. Return to, I'm sure, what the Smothers and the Wesley and the Lamar families were. There were times when we lived multi-generational, we lived when one house might contain 10 or 15 people. You probably wanted to be that way, but that's. But that's what we did.

00:17:09:01 - 00:17:30:13
Unknown
When it comes to our veterans community. They are a part of our household. They belong in space that reminds them of their dignity. And America has a contract with them. They say that if you serve, we'll take care of you. Now, we're saying currently that that contract is being shredded in our midst. So we wanted to be a part of that.

00:17:30:15 - 00:17:54:07
Unknown
And sometimes tension. Who are these veterans? People have ideas in their minds about who those people are. But what we did then is the granular work of introducing people to these human beings, learning their stories and talking to the businesses around, talking with political leaders around. And now they are on board because they see it as our household duty.

00:17:54:07 - 00:18:18:04
Unknown
We talk about the word economy or economist from the Greek, the household of faith. They are part of our household. They deserve dignity and that is the extension of ministry. Theology and proclamation is Doctor Wesley and Reverend Jasmine. It's so Doctor Wesley talking about how the faith community can pick up and be a part of meeting the needs in community.

00:18:18:06 - 00:18:41:22
Unknown
And I want to transition a little bit into this notion of what does it mean for the faith community as it relates to stewardship and stewardship of the land? And thinking about we talked about earlier how some estimates say that, Faith community owns 2.6 million acres of land, that could potentially, accommodate 800,000 new homes, potentially community facilities, etc..

00:18:41:22 - 00:19:09:01
Unknown
And I think about when, God told Moses, use what's in your hand. Right. Think about in Nehemiah there's notion of, you know, faith, community building in front, right. Being a part of the rebuilding of the wall. Talk a little bit about what stewardship means, right? In the context of the faith community, thinking about how it can activate what it has at its disposal to meet needs in community.

00:19:09:03 - 00:19:34:07
Unknown
Well, so in any church you go to, right, you're going to hear some message on giving. And we limit stewardship to these, sermons that we want to press people about releasing your tithe and you're offering and sowing. And what we teach them, I think, is what the church has to embody. We teach people, you receive something from the Lord, and the Lord has an expectation of how you're supposed to handle that, what you're supposed to do with it.

00:19:34:09 - 00:19:52:19
Unknown
That's how we get more of a giving. That's how the Lord blessed you. Now the Lord expects a portion of to be given back. Well, if that's what we're teaching, preaching to our members, what better way to exemplify it than as a church for the church to recognize we've been given something and God has an expectation of how we use it.

00:19:52:19 - 00:20:19:03
Unknown
So those numbers, if we're owning that much land, what does God expect of us to do with that? What is the best use of that? How does that honor God? How do we use it in a way that others can witness the power of faith and love and living out our Christian principles? So the same way we want to press out upon our members in giving, I think as a church, as a body, we understood we have an obligation to utilize what the Lord has put in our hands this land.

00:20:19:05 - 00:20:48:15
Unknown
Now the question is, what does God want from us and how does it how do we use it in a way that honors God? So that someone else can see that if they see how our church is doing, that, maybe they buy in, maybe a business buys in, maybe the school systems, maybe the city counselors. So now, as Bill said, we're now building more of a community where this partnership and the church has led the way by stewarding being a good, accountable user of the land, God has granted that God's not making more land.

00:20:48:15 - 00:21:08:16
Unknown
That's where real economy is. That's where real wealth is, is in the land. And how we utilize it, I think, really shows a way to honor God and and build more community partnerships. You know, it's interesting you mentioned the notion of community partnerships. I'm always struck in the story of Nehemiah where he talked about, you know, the priest were rebuilding the wall, the goldsmiths.

00:21:08:16 - 00:21:35:21
Unknown
Right. The governors. And I told you that it's a public private partnership. Right. It's right there in the story of my right that that kind of repeat. And so, Reverend mama, I want to ask you something that picks up on something Reverend Smothers talked about earlier. And I'm going to ask all of you all about this, the reimagining of what it means to be a body of faith in this modern context as it relates to the utilization of land, the stewardship of land.

00:21:35:22 - 00:21:56:18
Unknown
So when we think about, you know, that old notion of a church, a mosque, a synagogue, a house of worship, maybe a place people go once or twice a week, right? What is it that the calling is in this modern context around reimagination of faith on land, and how that plays into how we ought to be thinking about this issue?

00:21:56:19 - 00:22:24:04
Unknown
You may be the most biblically literate interview I've ever written by the same age. For me and my. I guess I can no longer let me call it, Cain Home. Felder. Oh, gee. Right. So you raise a point that made a connection. The text tells us, and I think science affirms based on what happens to us after we leave these mortal coils and shake.

00:22:24:04 - 00:22:56:02
Unknown
Shakespeare said, we are made from dust. We are made from earth. The land is us, and we are the land we are made from. So there is there is a holy connection. There is a theological connection. And as Howard John has said in jazz as well, now we can use first names. We've known each other for a while that stewardship of land really is the story of Scripture.

00:22:56:04 - 00:23:27:08
Unknown
Who has land, whom? Who can get it, who kills to take it or keep it? What land is promised to this group and others? That is the story of Scripture and that is the story of today conquering, bombing, taking, moving, maneuvering. What we are called to do is to preach and embody an equitable distribution of that holy resource from which human beings are created.

00:23:27:09 - 00:23:48:10
Unknown
How is it that some hoard and some have lack? It is our job to speak and to wade into that breach. Seek this the welfare of the sea. This is interesting when when Jesus was quoting that Jeremiah, they were exiles, they were taking into a city that they did not want to be in. That was not their ancestral city.

00:23:48:11 - 00:24:08:21
Unknown
Still, the prophet says, you seek the welfare wherever you are. And so that becomes our work. It is communal welfare, seeking it, building it up. Because it is not that there is lack of the resource. It is a lack of the political and theological will and imagination to ensure that everyone can thrive as a result of the resource.

00:24:08:23 - 00:24:37:05
Unknown
And the prophet does tell them in, in that state. I'm glad Jasmine started it. Pray for the city's secrets, welfare and build homes. There's a commandment to build homes while you're there, and I think that that carries on for us as part of our spiritual assignment. You continue to build homes, seek the welfare, and the city grows and all are prospered by with the the people of faith are called to in dire times and in the in its welfare.

00:24:37:05 - 00:24:56:16
Unknown
You find your own. Yeah. And Reverend Smothers, look, since you started us down the row, Reverend Smothers. Yeah. Let me, let me let me come back to you. And I want to I want to pose a question. You all that this notion of stewardship versus ownership. And the call to have faith community be involved in something that blesses others.

00:24:56:18 - 00:25:15:12
Unknown
So there's the notion of like legally who has title to the land. Make sure you don't get in trouble when you're doing well. And yet there's also like whose land is it really. Right. And so there are conversations that sometimes go into well you know Native Americans were here before. Like whose land is it really. Or there's the notion of this is God's land, this is the earth, right?

00:25:15:18 - 00:25:45:13
Unknown
The earth is the Lord's. And so Reverend smothers that notion of whose land is it? And what is that land to be used for, right? Have you found that in your conversations at your church in Atlanta and with peers and colleagues, that that conversation has opened eyes and maybe change mindsets around how people are thinking about maybe not clutching on to something, but thinking about how, as Doctor Wesley said earlier, how to use that gift right?

00:25:45:13 - 00:26:32:18
Unknown
To bless others. Yeah, we did have to do a lot of theological teaching on the difference between ownership and stewardship that we are not owners, but everything we have is a gift from God and rewiring ourselves to understand stewardship as, setting the table so that others might experience God and not, that we own what's on the table, but we set it to share with God's people and really understanding how important it is that we live in a place of stewardship and not ownership.

00:26:32:20 - 00:27:12:09
Unknown
There is a parable where in the Bible where, an owner goes and gets day workers to work in his fields, and he has some people that work all day long. And then there are some people who work just an hour or so. At the end of the day, and he pays them the same thing. And the people who work all day get raging mad, raving mad that they earned the same wage for working eight, ten, 12 hours that those who worked one hour or less.

00:27:12:11 - 00:27:50:13
Unknown
But the owner says to them, we had an understanding. We had a contract. Your daily wage was what we agreed upon. But I also made that agreement with others. We didn't talk about an hourly wage. We talked about a daily wage. We are all to share together what what we have given and what I have to give to you as those who have worked, and Doctor David Gushy, who has written a phenomenal book that we're studying, and one of our Bible studies called The Moral Teachings of Jesus.

00:27:50:15 - 00:28:25:00
Unknown
He turned to this parable on its hand, and he says that this is a parable about equity and how everybody has to eat, that. We have to begin to understand stewardship as making sure that all people eat. Not that we all make the same thing, but that everybody eats no matter how much they worked, and that there is this, leveling at the table of God that is counted countercultural to capitalism.

00:28:25:02 - 00:28:56:08
Unknown
It is countercultural to our understanding of justice in the United States, and it is countercultural to how we pay and understand the difference between ownership and stewardship in our world today. And this has really challenged us as a church. What does it mean to not own something, but to be in charge of using it for its best and highest use, and doing it in a way that benefits everybody?

00:28:56:10 - 00:29:13:23
Unknown
Reverend Smothers, you bring up. So that's the question we've been asking. It's an interesting thing where you bring up that phrase highest and best use. We hear that a lot in the real estate community, but it sounds like you all have put a different spin on it. Before we go further, we need to pause for a moment for a segment that we're entitling.

00:29:13:23 - 00:29:33:21
Unknown
This is The Calling, which captures and highlights voices of the faith based development movement in New York City. Bishop R.C. Hugh Nelson led his congregation through the development of the Ebenezer Urban Ministry Center, and he also lent his expertise to many others. Following in his footsteps.

00:29:33:21 - 00:29:36:02

00:29:36:02 - 00:30:10:14
Unknown
Most people forget that religious organizations, are also property owners and especially in dense populations, dense urban areas. We have land which is in many times underutilized, or just vacant. And so it gives religious organizations an opportunity either to sell, to lease or to partner with developers to develop housing on these properties.

00:30:10:16 - 00:30:29:22
Unknown
Gone are the days where pastors attach their egos to the size of the, sanctuary instead of just building a larger sanctuary. We really should be able to meet a need in the community that we can do more. So much more in fulfilling the mission to which we believe God has called us.

00:30:29:22 - 00:30:51:03
Unknown
Gone are the days. That's certainly a challenge. Indeed. And an invitation. All right, let's jump right back into the conversation. God bless. Bishop Nelson, the work they're doing. I want to ask all of you all a question that, in these days and time some may consider to be a little bit controversial, but, we're here to talk real talk, which is.

00:30:51:04 - 00:31:13:02
Unknown
Is there a particular imperative around this work for the black church when we talk about the moral imperative of things? And so we're talking broadly. We're talking about the faith community in general white, black, blue, green, Latino, Asian, whatever background. But I do want to ask a specific question in the context, particularly in the United States of America.

00:31:13:04 - 00:31:42:00
Unknown
Is there a particular imperative for the black church doctor? Wesley, why don't we start with you? Well, let's first make sure we're speaking about the historical black church, not just a church filled with black people. Yes, sir. Right. So historically, the black church has, as rooting just at its core, the reason the black church exists, the reason was to find space for the dignity and the equality of black people to worship when they were in atmospheres of white religious institutions where they were not welcome.

00:31:42:00 - 00:32:06:03
Unknown
Right. So that that's how it's birthed. There's a justice that's at the core of it, Cedric Lincoln and Lawrence were me and their book about the black church in America. So the black church is the cultural womb of black America, that everything that black people were allowed to identify with was birthed out of the church, schools, newspapers, businesses, all institutions came out of the black church.

00:32:06:03 - 00:32:28:03
Unknown
So historically, at its roots, not only is there a justice imperative, but there is a this is more than just church that we are doing educational work. We are doing journalism work. We are doing banking work, we are doing financing work. We couldn't go to banks to get mortgages. So black businesses were formed out of black church for black consumerism.

00:32:28:03 - 00:32:45:09
Unknown
So yes, I think at the core of historical black church, there's always had a pair. So much so, you know, I was hearing Jasmine speak about teaching her congregation and preparing for this vision. You know, we didn't even have to do much of that. There was not a lot of vision casting because you kind of understood this is who we are.

00:32:45:13 - 00:33:00:10
Unknown
This is what we do. We didn't even take a vote on whether we want to do it. We just said, we're going to do this. And if you got to it, you get to it. You're either with us or you're not. If you're not with us, we got a church you can go to, right? But but this is what we do because this is who we are.

00:33:00:10 - 00:33:24:02
Unknown
Yeah. And we don't we don't need to do much more than remind you this is the core of what this church is about. Yeah. Ram. Mama, let me pick up on that in terms I'm a little bit institutional, not just congregational. So when we think about this notion of, the the imperative for the black church, and you think about predominantly black denominations, right?

00:33:24:04 - 00:33:46:12
Unknown
What is the case there that can be made at a denominational level that says, hey, gang. Right. There's more we could be doing beyond. There's more we should be doing at a denominational level to scale this movement in a different kind of way. So there are two options. One, I could put up the black church finger, which means I'm.

00:33:46:17 - 00:34:20:08
Unknown
You going to step on out. You going step on out. But I'm, I'm, I'm, you know take it to me straight up. Most of our denominations are consumed with petty politics. Yeah. Petty power moves. I am disappointed not only in my own, but in many others. What is required of denominations is to remember this. You exist to strengthen and to energize the local church, and to strengthen and energize the local church.

00:34:20:13 - 00:34:46:17
Unknown
The community around these places must be cared for. So I think that if there are visionary denominational operatives who exist for something other than the accrual of power, but who see that the reason that we exist in a post denominational age, in the minds of most people that come to Alpha Street or Metropolitan or Atlanta, first denominations are already dead.

00:34:46:17 - 00:35:11:02
Unknown
You know, when I moved with my family in 1986 from Macon, Georgia to Jacksonville, Florida, 40 years ago, we were looking for an African Methodist Episcopal church. Nobody does that anymore. They come to the city and they say, what church is doing the work that matters to us? And they will go there. We have Pentecostals who come to Metropolitan.

00:35:11:04 - 00:35:28:05
Unknown
I got Jews who come to Metropolitan. I have people who have no faith who come. And I think that that's true for all churches here. So the denominations, I think, must refocus themselves to zero in on the needs of the community. That is where we have found growth. And I think the denomination is possible. But I have to admit a skepticism there.

00:35:28:05 - 00:35:49:05
Unknown
Yeah, I think the core of your question is this assumption that collectively we can do more. Yeah. Right. That and so as denominations should represent multiple faith based, multiple congregations, there's an opportunity to do more. But that's that's not what happens. So the question is can a metropolitan in an alpha treat partner together. Or can can we do something.

00:35:49:05 - 00:36:07:09
Unknown
Does first have another partner that's outside of United Methodist and are they allowed to. That's why I think the work you all do is so important. Because if this is going to land singularly in local congregations who are bereft Baptists, at least you all have a structure Baptist wing. I mean I don't know what that means man.

00:36:07:13 - 00:36:31:23
Unknown
There's no there's no Gavels are we looking at the structure, looking at you, looking at it. If if it's the autonomy of of of a local church. Yeah. Most churches are intimidated for stewardship of land and building because they don't think they have the capacity. They don't think they have the money. Right? They think that you have to be sitting on multiple millions of dollars to do this yourself, and don't know about developing partnerships with builders.

00:36:31:23 - 00:36:46:10
Unknown
And, man, I have to learn what a what a tax credit was. And I had no idea what a tax credit. Yeah right. Yeah. Yeah. But you learn these things. That's where the work you are doing so important. So that local churches are not intimidated by thinking this apple is too big for me to take a bite. Right, right.

00:36:46:12 - 00:37:08:18
Unknown
And Reverend Smothers let me go there. So this work is hard. Knock, knock. The Wesley's saying, look, this work is hard. Always tell folks I'm a proud graduate. Howard University school of Divinity, Old Testament, New Testament systematic theology. I didn't take Greek. Greek took me haha, I got I was, I was taught how to counsel people who were dying, but we never learned about a pro forma or how to negotiate a joint venture agreement.

00:37:08:23 - 00:37:32:03
Unknown
So Doctor Wesley, you I was opposed like this is necessary and it can be challenging. Right. And I want to go Reverend smothers you this notion of the why it's worth it to put in the hard work to stretch beyond our comfort zone, to connect to what faith community is called to be black church, white church, blue church, green church, whatever it is.

00:37:32:05 - 00:38:01:07
Unknown
What is it about the legacy that faith community can leave right with the utilization of the land they are stewarding that calls on faith leaders to lean into waters that may be rougher than they used to, to get into uncomfortable and unfamiliar conversations. Right? About tax credits or about zoning variances that aren't the same thing as we're at Lenten season, or it's Passover, right?

00:38:01:07 - 00:38:06:14
Unknown
Or whatever it may be. Speak a little bit on that, if you would. Reverend Smothers.

00:38:06:16 - 00:38:32:04
Unknown
I believe that we are at a critical time in the life of the church universal, where we have to have some really hard conversations about what actually is the church in this season? The church used to be the third place, the place where people hung out, where you ate, where you met people. Doctor Lamar talks about folks coming in town and looking for a certain denominational church.

00:38:32:06 - 00:38:52:15
Unknown
Those days are gone, and so much of what the church offers and used to offer is, is cared for elsewhere in the community. And you don't have to come to church for that. You don't even have to sign on to church for that. And so the church really has to dig down into why do I exist? What is my role?

00:38:52:15 - 00:39:20:03
Unknown
What is something that we can uniquely do? Well, the United Methodist Church is one of the largest land owners in the entire country, and really the world. The United Methodist Church can uniquely transform with the land that we own, communities where we are. So do we focus on disease of the church, or do we focus on what can be?

00:39:20:03 - 00:39:48:11
Unknown
If the church digs into its local community, into the needs of its local community, and to being the light holder, the light bearer, the lighthouse in that community, so that the community can see what it can be. Because so many times our communities are disjointed. We have one of the most complex zip codes in the nation. At 360 Peachtree Street.

00:39:48:13 - 00:40:16:04
Unknown
There are multimillionaires, and there are people who are scraping for a dollar a day, all in that one zip code. And many of those people all worship together at Atlanta first. And so we have to ask the question, what does a multi-ethnic multi socio economic church exist for in the South anymore? We know what the black church exists for.

00:40:16:09 - 00:40:48:00
Unknown
We know what the white church exists for. But how do we carve out a church that does have a long legacy and does it need to relearn what it means to steward things well, but has a deep affection for creativity and innovation, and to be something that traditional churches have not been, and that is places that are deeply active in their communities.

00:40:48:02 - 00:41:16:03
Unknown
Reverend Smothers, if I can, I want to pivot on that's almost a perfect segue, Doctor Wesley, to something that in early 2026, Alfred Street was tied with in terms of Reverend Smothers talked about being kind of deeply tied into the needs of community. And I know that Alfred Street did something pretty amazing in terms of what it did to help residents in Alexandria, Virginia, who were part of, who had some needs around housing.

00:41:16:03 - 00:41:41:03
Unknown
Why don't you speak about what the church did and why? Yeah. So every year we have a spiritual, time of fasting that we call seek, seek really to seek the face of God, the voice of God, by shutting off all the things that kind of pull us away. It started years ago, and it's grown, you know, every year to the number of people who joined us this year, which is about 40,000 people signed a covenant to join us in this time, 30 day prayer and fasting.

00:41:41:05 - 00:42:08:18
Unknown
We believe, again for the prophet Jeremiah. Jeremiah says, be hot today. God says we seek my face and turn from your wicked ways. I'll hear from heaven, and I'll heal the land and forgive your sin. So we think that the prayerful journey is not just to transform us, but to transform the the nation around us. And clearly, in these contentious days in which we live, where there's so much disdain for those we have, not we we need to see a change in the land.

00:42:08:18 - 00:42:28:17
Unknown
So we went in the prayer journey, and every year at the end of the prayer journey, we lift up a sacrificial offering for people to give whatever they want, and we dedicate it to a certain cause that we believe changes the world. This year, while part of that prayer journey, we have this cold fast that this fast, I'm seeing this cold, front the swept through DC.

00:42:28:18 - 00:42:52:03
Unknown
It was so cold one morning, I got up and I just pushed the button on my thermostat, and the heat came on, and the Holy Spirit convicted me. I've. I mean, people don't have that privilege that so many people can't just push a button and they're warm up the refrigerator and they have food. So we pray for decided we want to do something around homelessness and home insecurity in our in our city.

00:42:52:05 - 00:43:14:12
Unknown
How the Holy Spirit works. The mayor called me literally three days later, we were talking and I said, Madam Mayor, what's the biggest problem we have in the city right now? She said, you won't believe this, but we just found out that 447 families are in the rear, of their rental with affordable housing. And HUD is pushing for them to now get evicted.

00:43:14:14 - 00:43:32:07
Unknown
447 families are going to be evicted in one fell swoop. Do you know what that does to social services in the city? Do you know how that affects, public education, that now kids are coming to school who don't have homes to stay in? Do you know what the crime rate is going to look like? So we have to do something to fix this.

00:43:32:09 - 00:43:58:03
Unknown
And so again, how Holy Spirit works, the amount that we raised exactly match the amount that those 450 families. Oh wow. And so we decided that's what we're going to do. Wow. Wow. So we are clearing up all of their debt. Yeah. And then we partner with other churches who are creating financial literacy programs so that each one of these families who have their debt erased can now hopefully be in a position where they don't get there again.

00:43:58:03 - 00:44:19:14
Unknown
Yeah. So I'm grateful there wasn't just our church. It was the 40,000 people who joined us. They gave we gave all that money away. And now 447 families are not going to lose their home. You know, it's fascinating to me to think about how a community of faith decided that it was going to. One is right. And some of this is kind of be think about what are the need in community, what's the need in community.

00:44:19:16 - 00:44:38:05
Unknown
Think about using what's in its and in this case, dollars, right. People who have resources, financial resources to meet that need and to be willing to targeted in that way in addition to building housing, you all are also in this way providing for some of the housing security needs of folks in your community. And it's a good, good segue.

00:44:38:05 - 00:45:08:08
Unknown
We're having the Ma want to come to this notion of the faith community moving from charity to community builders, community developers, right? Including charity. But beyond right. And that notion of and Doctor Wesley talked about connecting with other folks in the faith community, other houses of worship, to say, what can we do together? And so talk a little bit about what it is for your work at Metropolitan and Beyond the Walls, Metropolitan me with other communities of faith.

00:45:08:10 - 00:45:34:17
Unknown
When you think about what you're doing at your congregational level and others to move beyond just charity and to also development and building community, I cannot remember who said it, but but my colleagues here will have heard this. When I feed hungry people or clothe the naked, they call me a saint. But when I ask why people are hungry and naked, they call me a socialist.

00:45:34:19 - 00:45:45:13
Unknown
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Here is the problem. Yes ma'am. The church has allowed our.

00:45:45:15 - 00:46:10:14
Unknown
We've allowed others to set our agenda. Instead of fundamentally transforming the systems that create a lack of housing, a lack of food a lack of safety, lack of education, we become those who put Band-Aids on those systems instead of asking the further upstream question, I what Doctor Wesley has proven is that there are resources to meet the need.

00:46:10:16 - 00:46:37:17
Unknown
Right now. We got to have a bigger conversation about why so few are hoarding so much in this nation, why a precious number of billionaires own more than half of the economic productivity of the United States of America. We've got to ask these questions because, as Jasmine says, the text demands it. Why is it that we translate the word that should be justice as righteousness?

00:46:37:19 - 00:47:03:23
Unknown
Why is it that salvation would better be rendered as liberation? But we call it salvation. We play with words, play with words and concepts, plays with people's lives. And I think that the spirit is speaking not just to Howard, John Wesley, when you press that button, but the spirit is also speaking to senators and to executives. But the problem is, how do Wesley can allow the spirit to move in him ethically?

00:47:03:23 - 00:47:28:03
Unknown
But these people also have billionaires, and people have got to raise funds. They don't have enough of us in their ear pushing them. So the last thing I'll say about that is those of us who care about not just taking care of those who are victims of our systems, but transforming it have to, you mentioned, is where the power to push our leaders to do something more radical, more human, more beautiful, more just.

00:47:28:05 - 00:47:49:16
Unknown
So let me ask you all a question about the church. And again, I'm talking about faith communities in general. I'm using the church as a kind of nomenclature for faith communities writ large, whatever they may be. How can the faith community stay true to its mission when it has to partner with folks who may or may not be of that ilk?

00:47:49:18 - 00:48:12:17
Unknown
Right. So you're right. Nehemiah has got to deal with the king right? Billionaire. So when you're talking about doing development of housing, if you're talking about doing development of community facilities, if you talk about even engage you. Hey, Madam Mayor, what are we going to do here? You have to engage with the faith community, has to engage with folks who may or may not share similar kind of moral grounding.

00:48:12:17 - 00:48:32:15
Unknown
Right? Similar faith beliefs and so, Reverend Smothers, let me start with you to ask when you when you're getting into this space, the faith community, how does it make sure that it stays true to its mission even while having to work with and deal with others beyond the walls, who may or may not be of the same ilk?

00:48:32:15 - 00:48:40:04
Unknown
And do you do your work with those folks who say, no, we're not going to work with you. We're going to find those who do.

00:48:40:06 - 00:49:07:20
Unknown
In my experience, you have to believe God because partners outside of the church will say that the vision is too big. They will say that it is impossible. They will say, that churches can't do things like this, and they will say that they don't want to work with churches because there's so many voices at the table when it comes, to faith communities.

00:49:07:22 - 00:49:35:12
Unknown
And the churches role in that is to keep the vision, the vision to push back when they say it's impossible to push back when they say it's too big to push back, when they say it's going to take what we call our project lasagna funding, because there are so many layers and so many partners in this project. And, and when they say, we've never done anything like this and you say to them, guess what?

00:49:35:12 - 00:49:53:03
Unknown
We haven't either. Let's do it together. And you really have to keep the main thing, the main thing, because these partners have a vision of what they want to do, how they have done it. And the church has to be the one to say no. We are the vision holders. We are going to move forward with what the Lord said.

00:49:53:05 - 00:50:21:10
Unknown
We believe God that nothing is impossible for God, that we are to build houses and live in them, that we are to seek the welfare of the city, that we are to feed those who are hungry, that we are to provide for those who are at risk of being evicted or have been evicted and don't qualify anymore. Figure out something so that they have a place to live and the church has to hold its ground.

00:50:21:12 - 00:50:45:23
Unknown
And when the church holds its ground, these partners will realize that they. Their responsibility then is to bring their part to the story, but not to try to change the story. It may take a while. Yeah, but you have to hang in there. Reverend Smothers, you're helping us to land the plane on our segment. So I'm going to ask Reverend Mama and Doctor Wesley kind of, to build on that for a final word.

00:50:45:23 - 00:51:05:15
Unknown
And I think about the, founder of Enterprise Community Partners, the late Jim Rouse said, what what should be can be with the will to make it so. And, Reverend Martin, think about what you said about how, you know, there are folks, there's wealth in the land. The question is, what is it prioritized for? So let me ask you two gentlemen, the close out of this notion of picking up where Reverend Smothers was.

00:51:05:17 - 00:51:26:14
Unknown
When folks are asking faith community to play small ball, and we think about the juxtaposition of these and greater things, shall you do right? How can the community of faith maintain that hold the ground that Reverend Smothers talked about? What is your word to the faith community? Say, hold the ground and we should do more, can do more, will do more.

00:51:26:16 - 00:51:47:01
Unknown
When folks, even folks who got a lot will tell us to play small ball, right, mama? I was on the phone today with a very well connected person in DC talking about the mayoral race and the fascinating conversation, but this is where we land the plane.

00:51:47:03 - 00:52:20:12
Unknown
That the earth belongs to God, not the church. That Jesus was not a Christian, that humanity is God's. So when I view the world as it is, I say to myself that God is into this space to make it what God dreams. Again, I go to the prayer Jesus taught us to say, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth, and my job when I'm dealing with political leaders, business leaders is never to be practical.

00:52:20:14 - 00:52:40:08
Unknown
Christianity is impractical. We are in the season of lent. We believe that death is not permanent. There's nothing more impractical than that. If we believe that death can be overturned, then this economic system can become just that. We do what we're supposed to do. It follow the spirit. Then human beings can live lives that are abundant and healed and joyful.

00:52:40:10 - 00:53:06:01
Unknown
It is possible, as Reverend Jackson said, I don't do the practical. We do the impossible in community, trusting in one another and being inspired by the spirit. It's possible it can't be done. It will be done. It must be done. Right. Great. And businesses, do. Businesses believe you don't. Right. And so to Jasmine's point about holding our ground, why do we feel we're not capable to do what a corporation can do?

00:53:06:03 - 00:53:27:07
Unknown
I believe I take Jesus at His word. The gates of hell will not prevail. We have more power than we sometimes operate in. I think the key for us with partnership and doing business. And this where you're going to see a distinction with a jazzman and a bill, you've got to be someone they want to do business with.

00:53:27:09 - 00:54:01:03
Unknown
The integrity of how we operate, that we're not simply in existence to earn and to gain, but to make a difference. And so often, especially in our black church traditions, long do we not every with the power and the vision or the concern for those outside the church. We don't operate with good business internally. You know, I cannot draw, multibillion dollar community development corporation to want to partner with us if we're always big into our lights on and we've got embezzlement and our own church and, you know, we just don't have integrity.

00:54:01:03 - 00:54:26:05
Unknown
We don't follow through on our word. We don't pay our bills. We don't take care of our contracts. The church has to lift up not only a care, compassion, but a witness of integrity for how we handle business. That will make because to just when I believe corporations want to partner with the church, that's a win win. You know, if you got a great church, that's they come to our church when they're running for elections, right?

00:54:26:06 - 00:54:44:01
Unknown
Right. They all want to get in front of the congregation. They want to talk to the pastor. They want to run. In that sense, let's make them want to run to us for changing the world and caring for the city, because we showed the capacity, the compassion and the integrity that draws partners to us to want to do this work compassion and integrity.

00:54:44:01 - 00:55:13:11
Unknown
It's a great, great way to land the plane here today. I want to thank my guests, Reverend Jasmine Smothers, Reverend William Lamar, and Doctor Howard John Wesley, for being here today. If housing is about dignity, then faith communities are uniquely positioned to lead, not just with compassion but with assets, influence and vision. Today reminds us that radical commonsense is about aligning what we believe with what we do and what we build.

00:55:13:13 - 00:55:14:13
Unknown
Stay radical.

00:55:14:13 - 00:55:15:10

00:55:15:10 - 00:55:30:00
Unknown
join the growing movement around faith based development, please visit Enterprise community.org backslash FBI and sign up for our email list to get access to news, resources and opportunities from across the country.

00:55:30:00 - 00:55:55:19

00:58:43:18 - 00:59:08:20
Unknown
One more time we're going right. Oh slash okay, said the old man. Backslash. All right, all right. Here we go. To join the growing movement around faith based development, please visit Enterprise community.org/f a b, d and sign up for our email list to get access to news, resources and opportunities from across the country.

01:15:27:15 - 02:34:33:20

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:03
Unknown
Welcome to radical common sense, where faith meets action and community power becomes real solutions. Here we explore how principles become blueprints and how faith institutions are transforming what they already have into what communities truly need. I'm your host, David Bowers, and this is radical, common Sense, a masterclass in faith based development.

00:00:23:03 - 00:00:47:05

00:00:47:05 - 00:01:19:08
Unknown
Today we look back to move forward. Tracing the origins of modern faith based development. Enterprise launched its faith based development initiative in 2006 with a clear mission expand housing, advance equitable procurement opportunities, strengthen neighborhood anchor institutions, and help nurture a movement far beyond any one organization. What began as a bold idea has grown into a national model rooted in a long history of houses of worship, driving community development across the generations.

00:01:19:10 - 00:01:46:19
Unknown
So the question guiding us is, how did faith based development evolve from isolated projects into a scalable model for community transformation? I'm joined today by three leaders who bring history, experience and movement insight from the Sunshine State. Reverend Doctor Joaquin Willis, founder and president emeritus of Collective Empowerment Group of South Florida, a consortium of churches advancing social and economic justice.

00:01:46:21 - 00:02:01:20
Unknown
For decades, he has mobilized congregations to expand homeownership and economic mobility from South Florida to Prince George's County, Maryland. And on a personal note, walking. I will shape my own calling in this work. Joaquin, good to have you

00:02:01:20 - 00:02:14:05
Unknown
Kirk Goodrich, president of Mansion Development, brings over 30 years of leadership in affordable housing, including involvement with more than $1 billion invested to create 12,000 new homes.

00:02:14:07 - 00:02:48:11
Unknown
He also co-host The Housing Problem, exploring New York City's housing challenges and the Path Forward, and Reverend Doctor Sam Murillo, emeritus professor of sociology at Wesley Theological Seminary. He's a pastor, scholar and early architect of this movement. Doctor Morelos work has included helping congregations turn faith into action. As the former Minister of Affordable Housing for the Baltimore-Washington conference of the United Methodist Church, Sam is also a co-founding convener of Enterprise's faith based Development initiative.

00:02:48:14 - 00:03:18:03
Unknown
Gentlemen, welcome to the show. All right. Great to be here. Sam, really want to get started with you and ask you a little bit about, we always talk about how the faith community has been doing this work for a long time, and there's kind of this sense of a modern movement taking hold, an ecosystem developing. So talk to us a little bit about what some of the historical moments or traditions or that laid the groundwork for what we now think of as the faith based development movement.

00:03:18:05 - 00:03:42:19
Unknown
Well, great. Glad to be here. And it's it's exciting to see how far this movement has come, even in the last 20 plus years, that that we've been working together with the faith based development initiative. And, and I think back in the early 2000s when when I was first introduced into this and, and coming from the university, I was at Georgetown University and, and it was really about community based research at the time.

00:03:42:21 - 00:04:02:18
Unknown
So that was kind of an outgrowth of the service learning movement, which itself is an outgrowth of the asset based community development movement. So we've got this kind of academic stream that's that's folding into this, and then discovering, well, there's a whole lot of people out here already that are doing things that we really didn't know very much about.

00:04:02:20 - 00:04:29:13
Unknown
So we started with a research project on the churches in Anacostia, DC, a predominantly poor African-American neighborhood. And we're just looking at the community assets. And and for a series of reasons, started to look at the property assets of the churches and at the time discovered, you know, some 50 churches owned over $72 million worth of property assets, which was just mind boggling.

00:04:29:15 - 00:04:58:12
Unknown
And so I think that's when we ran into you, who was and who you all were actually working with a couple of those churches, doing some projects and and realizing the amount of empty land that could that had all this potential to have something to be done with it. And so I think that, you know, just that discovery out in the community and the universities at the time, also trying to figure out how do we be better anchor institutions at Georgetown, we wanted to make a difference in the community.

00:04:58:12 - 00:05:22:23
Unknown
So how can we utilize the university's research and student resources? Student and faculty resources to help make a difference in the community? And then discovering all this work is already being done by community development organizations and, and larger nonprofits. So it's just these different worlds starting to discover each other, existing and doing comparable things that we could all benefit from working together better.

00:05:22:23 - 00:05:41:14
Unknown
Yep. And, Kirk, you come out of New York City, that experience with a long, rich history of the faith community doing work from your perspective, why don't you share a little bit of insight about kind of that history of and the kind of the track record of the faith community doing affordable housing and community development work?

00:05:41:14 - 00:05:42:14
Unknown
Appreciate it.

00:05:42:14 - 00:06:01:15
Unknown
David. So, you know, I grew up in New York, really inspired by and now partnering with for the last 15 years. East Brooklyn congregations, which is, part of the Industrial Foundation network and really is known in our world for

00:06:01:15 - 00:06:18:22
Unknown
the, Nehemiah homeownership development in East New York. Now, rental many thousands of units starting in Brooklyn and across the city, really catalyzed by a group of organizers led by my deacon and then church based leadership, first Johnny Ray Youngblood.

00:06:18:22 - 00:06:52:00
Unknown
Saint Paul's can be a Baptist church senior pastor, now, David Brawley, for the last two decades. But really, the work of churches and community development and housing development, to me is a successor of the civil rights movement, where collective action by churches around voting rights and a variety of issues around, empowerment, you know, has evolved over time into not only church based organizing, economic empowerment, but community transformation.

00:06:52:02 - 00:07:29:22
Unknown
And so what I see happening in terms of churches being involved in housing development and retail development and commercial development is a true successor of what we saw happening in the 50s and 60s. First attaining power and then deciding what you're going to do with it to change people's lives, I think is really the question that they helped to answer so successfully, not only in New York but across the country, whether it be Leon Sullivan in Philadelphia, John Egan in Chicago, in the Catholic faith, and, and East Brooklyn congregations in Brooklyn and more stories like that.

00:07:29:22 - 00:07:31:04
Unknown
Doctor Willis as well.

00:07:31:04 - 00:07:57:20
Unknown
Yeah. Appreciate that, Kirk. And good segue. And, Joaquin Willis, you I know were started some of your faith based development work in Prince George's county, Maryland, and have carried that to South Florida and really nationally. Say a little bit about your perspective on the history of faith based development work, right? And some of your experience with that, even with the, collective banking group now, the Collective Empowerment Group.

00:07:57:21 - 00:08:16:08
Unknown
Well, thank you, Dave, for having me. And, I would just say that, like you just said in your guest about really accomplished a lot. I really started at 18, following in the footsteps of Martin Luther King, who in his last book, Where Do We Go From Here, challenged us during The Poor People campaign. And

00:08:16:08 - 00:08:23:14
Unknown
as a student, I started seeing a need for education and development because I grew up in a United Methodist Church.

00:08:23:16 - 00:08:43:03
Unknown
Pastor. And and it really shaped my whole understanding of social justice. And Doctor King's death triggered my interest in economic justice. And the final thing I'll say is that that's led me to what we see ourselves as a movement of building black wealth to close the wealth gap in America.

00:08:43:03 - 00:08:48:02
Unknown
And let me ask this question. You all have touched Kirk.

00:08:48:02 - 00:09:07:17
Unknown
You touched on it a little bit about the faith community, and I'm going to use the word kind of like the church as, nomenclature for houses of worship of all faiths. Right. But kind of the institutional body, church, if you would, that history coming out of the civil rights movement and this notion of even, even prior to that.

00:09:07:17 - 00:09:32:17
Unknown
But the church as a place of social and civic support. Right. And a third an anchor within a community. Kirk, you want to pick up on that a little bit about some of the history of that and how that has informed how people are thinking about. Now, what does it mean for the church? Right. Houses of worship to be anchor institutions in their community?

00:09:32:18 - 00:10:12:16
Unknown
No, absolutely. I think, both the when I think about church space, direct action, economic empowerment and community transformation, I take those things together. I think because it's the church for hundreds of years, whether it's a black church or whatever, the denomination has always been involved in social good feeding the hungry. Starting health care systems. But the direct action and organizing to change systems communities to impact elected officials and government, was different.

00:10:12:16 - 00:11:07:15
Unknown
And I think that's that energy. I think transforming communities through housing or creating economic self-determination and economic development like Leon Sullivan did. What progress plays, or John Eagan in, in Chicago saying, you know, black, black homeowners there were buying homes under contract, paying for years and didn't own the home. And he came up against that. So I just think the ability to take political power and put it in service for the people in your parish, in your church to transform their lives, the lives of the community is really what I think differentiates what we're talking about and what we've seen up until the present time, from the historic work of service, feeding the

00:11:07:15 - 00:11:46:00
Unknown
hungry, clothing people all terrific work, but not work, that brought churches in conflict with powers and systems that needed to be impacted and changed. And and, Joaquin, let me ask you a question about that, because the notion of conflict and the notion of organizing and mobilizing, right. Thinking about what you talked about in terms of looking to Doctor King and and the historical precedent there and how the collective banking group got started and that notion of the engagement with power.

00:11:46:02 - 00:12:09:01
Unknown
Right. So say a little bit about what the thought process was about engaging with big banks, right, and large financial institutions and what in the what preceded that in terms of history that might have informed the thinking of the faith leaders as they were thinking about, how are we going to engage with these folks? And if so, what does that look like?

00:12:09:03 - 00:12:36:04
Unknown
Well, you know, redlining and predatory practices were taking place. But I think the thing that brought the collective banking group together was that, we deposited millions of dollars into these banks every Monday morning, and we felt that it was important that we have a voice. And initially we asked not only to speak to them in the leadership, but we threatened to close accounts, move money from those banks to the banks that were responsive.

00:12:36:06 - 00:12:57:06
Unknown
In addition, we would ask, be on their boards, the advisory boards, and at that time we were able to do it later on for different reasons. The banks moved the headquarters and we weren't able to do that. And as we watched this thing unfold, we began to realize that the churches themselves were struggling financially. So they were land rich in cash poor.

00:12:57:08 - 00:13:18:19
Unknown
And we'd started thinking, well, what can we do to help build capacity for both the church and the community? And that gave birth to my doctoral study in holistic human development. If you are part of David. And I started to see the need to build leadership in the 80s, working with IBM and Xerox, because I had big jobs making big money.

00:13:18:21 - 00:13:36:23
Unknown
Dean Jones asked me, he said, look, I want you to get your doctorate and I want you to focus in on helping the pastors get more technology into the church. Well, the churches weren't ready, so I had to flip the script, so why aren't they ready? And we realized that we've been building leaders in the church for many, many years.

00:13:36:23 - 00:13:59:04
Unknown
Cab drivers were now treasurers and chair of trustee boards that were running $1 million through the churches. And we beginning to see, hey, there's a segue here, we're going to do what we need to do engage the faith community holistically. Let's do it economically. So we begin to bring those churches. Now we're in a faith. The collective empowerment group is interfaith.

00:13:59:04 - 00:14:25:15
Unknown
It includes, Islamic temples. And some of the leaders are from the Islamic community as well as Christian leaders. So we're excited about where we're going now. But this has been challenging day. But you know. Yeah, for sure. And Sam, I want to ask you if there are some lessons that you when you think about your your leadership, your work at Georgetown, your work at Wesley, your work within the United Methodist Church.

00:14:25:17 - 00:14:57:21
Unknown
Are there some lessons that folks can learn from some of the early faith building, faith community building, faith organizing work that informs and can apply to what we need to do today. Yeah. Kirk, I want to thank you for raising that. The industrial, the IAF, the Industrial Areas Foundation and that whole community organizing aspect. You know, being at at Georgetown, a predominantly white, affluent institution, you know, there was always that sense you got to play within the rules.

00:14:57:21 - 00:15:20:09
Unknown
And, and, you know, that worked for affluent folks for whom the system was set up to work. But it doesn't work so well for folks outside the system or who are prevented from benefiting from the system, so that that whole political aspect of taking on opposition or organizing for power. I think that that became really important for us to realize that.

00:15:20:11 - 00:15:43:00
Unknown
And it being a Catholic institution, it had its Catholic social teachings, that that said, you have to be on behalf of the poor, organize and do work on behalf of the poor. I know in our in my own Methodist church, we have our social principles that say the same thing. So these teachings have been out there for literally hundreds and hundreds of years.

00:15:43:02 - 00:16:04:13
Unknown
But but they never really took on this kind of political organizing aspect that said, you needed to mobilize resources for the people that are are being disempowered by the system. So it's not just works of charity that are are meant to, to help the poor. You know, as you mentioned, feeding, feeding the hungry, providing some shelter for the homeless and so on.

00:16:04:15 - 00:16:26:00
Unknown
But you actually needed to empower folks to own the property and to own the means of, of, of, of, of gathering resources and employment and business opportunities. So, so that was, you know, kind of a real learning moment. I think, for, for, for the movement to, to say this, this is political and then it can't be avoided.

00:16:26:02 - 00:16:52:13
Unknown
And that we need to take that on head on as the church, as the university, as these anchor institutions, we have to be aware of, of the power inequities and do the organizing around it. So all of those things coming together, I think, were really important for for the movement's growth. Absolutely, absolutely. And, Kirk, I want to pick up there kind of a segue to something you said earlier that that Sam just got in on around the IAF.

00:16:52:15 - 00:17:28:00
Unknown
The notion of the political organizing, the mobilizing. When we think about today's context. Right. And I love the fact you're you're the development company, faith community, if they're going to do this, work has to intersect with developers, financial institutions, government folks and the like. So when you think about the Nehemiah movement, I mean, and lessons learned from from that movement and what needs to be taken by the faith community today as lessons about how to mobilize power, engage power, that notion of conflict you talked about, right?

00:17:28:02 - 00:18:04:01
Unknown
What are some of the lessons we take from that that can inform the evolution now of the movement in this modern context? Well, I think the three things I think of immediately, which is the lesson of industrial areas Foundation and the work in Brooklyn and all over the country is one defining what the problem is. Right? And so really having the ability through organizing and communicating with people in a church based setting to really have a very focused definition of what you want, the powers that be to do.

00:18:04:01 - 00:18:30:14
Unknown
The problem with modern day activism, is that, it's it's, angry, it's allowed. But the question is, is it effective? What? When you have people's attention, what do you want him to do? Occupy Wall Street is one example of, you know, I think people were right to be angry about the things they were angry about.

00:18:30:16 - 00:19:01:09
Unknown
But fundamentally, when you have people's attention and people are waiting to hear your ask, you have to, you know, you it has to be representative of the problems people are facing and it has to be achievable. So one definition of the problem to collective action, the Lone Ranger mentality, is not effective in creating immediate and ongoing sustained activity.

00:19:01:11 - 00:19:25:15
Unknown
And, and so the ability of ordinary people to come together and change their community, their state, their city, their country is the second lesson. I think the third lesson is you don't need to know everything, that it's okay to partner with developers, financial institutions, contractors, architects who know more than you. You know the building of a building is a value neutral proposition.

00:19:25:15 - 00:19:51:23
Unknown
Who it serves and who owns it and controls it is a different matter. And so the lesson I asked the final lesson is that through partnership you create capacity, credibility and the ability to execute. And in building buildings and changing communities is a detail and execution exercise. And that's, you know, that's really important for folks who want to succeed.

00:19:52:02 - 00:20:36:18
Unknown
It's a great, great lesson about how networks and collaborations can help and why. And I want to ask you about as, as the, the collective Empowerment group, collective bank and group kind of collective empowerment group has evolved over time. And we think about this movement you talked about earlier about building black wealth, focus on home ownership in some respects, in other economic development, how have networks and networking and collaboration with other players, other stakeholders in the ecosystem helped, the CSG and others that you may have seen kind of evolve in their work and more, more importantly, evolve in their effectiveness and their impact over time.

00:20:36:20 - 00:20:58:14
Unknown
Well, first part of the answer is networking, as I learned in the computer field, is a very delicate art. We watched the migration from Ethernet to internet, and now here we are on a podcast as we, ten people around the world together. The the speed of all of this, even in the networking system, is based on trust.

00:20:58:15 - 00:21:25:00
Unknown
We build, collaborative, collaborative teams by trusting each other. We build the church movement by past learning to trust each other. We help the churches and the pastors learn how to trust the congregation. And conversely, the congregation trust the pastors. So I think the networking piece really is weaving together a fabric with integrity that people can trust that you have the right intention in mind.

00:21:25:02 - 00:21:52:01
Unknown
That's the answer to part one. Now, would you kind of just take part two of that? Because though I think I lost it a little bit there. Yeah, yeah. That notion of how there were some of those lessons learned from the networking and the relationship building that the CSG has done with other partners in the ecosystem. What what has been taken from that to help grow the work and the effectiveness of the CG over time?

00:21:52:03 - 00:22:18:05
Unknown
Okay. Great question. It's you know, the CBG had an office and actually a chapter in Baltimore. We had a chapter in Prince County which cover Washington, North Carolina, came online. I moved past it. A church here in Florida. And then the Florida South Florida chapter was founded, some pastors who had confidence in what we were doing and said, hey, we need to take it to Tampa.

00:22:18:05 - 00:22:43:05
Unknown
So the Tampa chapters there, there's a chapter in Cincinnati and, and fledglings in other communities and places like Jonathan Weaver, who is the president and founder, has actually started some chapters in Africa. And, he's doing a great work over there and dealing with education and economic empowerment. So we watched this thing kind of just morph by a sense of, I trust this guy.

00:22:43:06 - 00:23:06:00
Unknown
Come and tell me about this. So that's kind of where the movement is taking itself today. Where will it go in the future? I'm not really sure, but it seems like it's really grown. And Sam, I want to ask you a question about picking up from where I was about trust. Right? Folks? Having to deal with each other, the notion of the role of mentorship and knowledge sharing.

00:23:06:00 - 00:23:37:10
Unknown
So you've you said in different places, and I think about your work at Wesley Seminary, right. And also your work within the Baltimore-Washington conference, United Methodist Church and beyond. How important has it been for folks who have been there, done that to mentor others, to share their information, share their knowledge, share their networks? Right. And so a little bit of that interplay between the building of trust, between folks, and the sharing of knowledge and in some cases, just mentoring folks to say, look, you know, this is how I did it, lessons learned.

00:23:37:10 - 00:24:03:09
Unknown
And like, have you seen models of that and how important is that work? Yeah, I think so, so critical. And yet it seems to me so underdeveloped that again, coming at it from kind of more of an academic side or the seminary side, it's very kind of happenstance when it happens, you find people that have been doing the work and and it's a blessing when they share that knowledge and wisdom and take folks under their wing.

00:24:03:11 - 00:24:27:15
Unknown
We tried and I think have had some success in creating some programs that, for example, get students out into the community or seminarians out into the community to do fellowships and internships and, and working with organizations and place them there and, and place them there for more than one semester at a time. That's also, one of those institutional challenges that the academic year is built on semesters.

00:24:27:15 - 00:25:09:06
Unknown
And so three months isn't enough time. And so you need a year or two years long, some, relationships to, to allow the time to be built. And so thinking outside the box of how to make that happen, it's something that I feel like I've spent a lot of my career trying to to do that and, at that at Georgetown and at Wesley to create programs that will allow students to spend a lot of time in the community working with organizations, staying in one place, getting contextual, contextual knowledge and and building personal relationships, for exactly that reason to, to understand, you know, you're not another each person doing this is inventing

00:25:09:06 - 00:25:29:02
Unknown
the wheel over and over again. We need to learn from one another that that has walked that road before. And learn from the mistakes and the challenges and and then move, move the goal further as, as they proceed. Kirk, I want to pick up on what doc said about mistakes. And also what Joaquin said about trust.

00:25:29:02 - 00:25:50:00
Unknown
So again, I'm going to go back to your role. You've been a financier. You've been a developer. You are a developer right in the faith. And when we talk about the birth of a movement and the evolution of the movement within the faith community, there are times where folks in the faith community are seen as easy marks, right, that can be taken advantage of.

00:25:50:00 - 00:26:19:23
Unknown
And there are those who have, built trust with folks in the ecosystem, have been mentored, have learned right, availed themselves the opportunity to kind of learn things. From your perspective, are there some insights you have from the different hats you've learned about the importance of folk in the faith community? Getting equipped in a way right, that allows them, to be good, effective players in this ecosystem, and not get taken advantage of.

00:26:20:01 - 00:26:50:21
Unknown
Yeah. I think, I think a few things, just like preaching a sermon or running a church, there are things to know about it. And, my dad used to say, don't tell people you can do things you can't don't to pretend to be something you're not. And and I think we all have to be respectful of the skill set that's required to do any task, but particularly something like designing a building, financing a building, building a building, operating a building.

00:26:50:23 - 00:27:28:07
Unknown
And fundamentally, I tell folks, whether it's finding somebody to walk your dog or build your building, pick somebody who, you know, has done it successfully, you know, over and over again. And I think what the faith based institutions often fall into is, is the need to try to do too much with their project. We want to employ people of color, people in the community, we want to create economic development opportunities.

00:27:28:07 - 00:27:53:01
Unknown
We want to educate. We want to build affordable housing. We want retail. You know, in basketball, there's not one shot that's worth ten points. That's actually going to make up the distance, and make up the gap. And you've got to pick 1 or 2 things you want to accomplish with your deal, your project. You've got to find the right team of people who've done that over and over again.

00:27:53:03 - 00:28:11:16
Unknown
And you got to partner with them and you got to take your single. You got to take your double. You know, you have to make sure that you're not trying to do too much and what you're trying to do, you're doing what folks who've done it many times before, I mean, to me, that's the formula. That's the speech I've given many times before.

00:28:11:18 - 00:28:32:16
Unknown
Yeah. It's interesting. Go ahead. Sam, I was just going to say, which that's wonderful advice. And yet we look to our church leaders, the senior pastor in a church, and expect them to know how to do all those things. And that that seems to be the real problem, that we put people in positions where they're not they've not been properly equipped.

00:28:32:18 - 00:28:55:21
Unknown
I remember many times you saying, oh, I missed that day in seminary about real estate development or property management. I missed that class that day. That's right. And Sam, have you seen any talk about the birth and evolution of a movement within seminaries in this country? Has there been real conversation or evolution about kind of building that into the code of what seminarians are equipped with, you know, training about?

00:28:56:00 - 00:29:22:16
Unknown
How do you manage buildings and land? Right, because you're going to be a leader of an institution that's stewarding that asset. Yeah, not a whole lot. I'm afraid. I'm afraid to say, you know, there's a little bit about, you know, in church leadership, about stewardship and, and about development. And there might be an optional course you might take for a week long seminar or something like that, but it's not really a well integrated component.

00:29:22:16 - 00:29:49:09
Unknown
And, you know, in the pressure is to compress the seminary, curriculum these days and get people in and out more quickly. And so they're kind of conflicting, goals with you need to know more about this stuff. And I think the doing the cohort trainings and the FBI training model is such an important piece. Yeah. I'm sure we'll come back to that, but no, I appreciate that for sure.

00:29:49:11 - 00:30:09:10
Unknown
Well, it really brings us we've got, I know we've been talking about how this movement has taken shape. But let's fast forward a bit to see how lives have been changed today in our this is the calling segment. We're highlighting. Trinity Plaza. One of the earliest projects supported by enterprise is faith based Development Initiative from the archives.

00:30:09:10 - 00:30:13:09
Unknown
Let's hear from a resident of Trinity Plaza in Washington, DC.

00:30:13:09 - 00:30:15:14

00:30:15:14 - 00:30:38:20
Unknown
It was really tough to find a place that was clean was safe. When I came across Trinity Plaza, it was awesome because it met all of my standards and it was affordable. This project has helped the community to become more like a family. It makes me feel like I matter. I don't have to worry about going to Maryland or Virginia to try to find affordable housing, or something that I can't afford on my own.

00:30:39:01 - 00:30:54:21
Unknown
Before I came to Trinity Plaza, I was working two full time jobs to make ends meet where I used to live. So for me, the rent is keep one steady and spend more time with my children. I get to put them to bed at night. I get to cook dinner for them. And I also get to read my son a bedtime story.

00:30:55:20 - 00:31:24:11
Unknown
that's what this work is all about. Financial stability for residents and their little ones. All right, let's jump right back in. I want to pick up on that that issue around kind of the seminary training. Kirk. Joaquin, I'm curious if either of you all have had any conversations or seeing anything going on in the world of seminaries, seminary training, kind of during the formal seminary years or kind of continuing education, where folks are trying to equip those folks with some knowledge about this project, this process.

00:31:24:11 - 00:32:00:02
Unknown
Kirk, anything in that space for you? I think I think the financial intermediaries, enterprise and organizations like it, across the country have done an incredible job of really answering the question of and filling the gaps of what folks need to know. I do think that, that partnership is the most effective way to want to educate, but to execute, both building development, ownership, economic development.

00:32:00:04 - 00:32:34:00
Unknown
I think the, the complexity and the breadth of the skills you need to, finance, design, construct, operate, lease up and operate buildings is so, broad that, it's really, not realistic to expect any one institution, to have all of that. Our company has done almost 60 projects where we have, an integrated company.

00:32:34:00 - 00:33:05:02
Unknown
We partner on almost everything because they're elements of executing a project we don't, do as well as some of our partners community engagement, you know, dealing with, creating trust in communities. I describe trust as infrastructure, meaning the power of faith based development is that you have these institutions that have been located in these communities forever.

00:33:05:04 - 00:33:35:07
Unknown
They have a, reservoir of goodwill and trust with, not only parishioners and congregants, but, you know, government elected officials, other stakeholders. And so when you look at trust as necessary infrastructure to execute your agenda and your project, that is not something we bring to the table, but that is the, you know, that is the element that's indispensable, that's necessary on everything.

00:33:35:09 - 00:34:04:01
Unknown
And and if that's what you do best, then do that. You don't need to be a jack of all trades. And I think that's the message I deliver to people. Yeah, you need to understand, but you don't need to be the operator. The executer of every element of what you do. It's interesting you say that, Kirk. We enterprise we talk about in our training curriculum, 20 hours of content making faith and, lay leaders, comfortably conversant about the development process.

00:34:04:03 - 00:34:37:07
Unknown
And it's it's really exciting to see how the movement has evolved over time, where there are more players in the ecosystem. We know that folks like the Oikos Institute, folks like rooted good, local initiative, Support Corporation enterprise. There a range of folks in the ecosystem now the United Church of Christ church building loan Fund. There are a lot of players in the space now in ways that there weren't ten, 15, 20 years ago who are taking formalized approaches, to addressing kind of the equipping of folks beyond even like a seminary setting and the like.

00:34:37:09 - 00:35:04:14
Unknown
Joaquin, I actually want to come to you, my friend, on something you you touched on earlier. And Kirk also hit on the notion of ownership, right? Ownership of land and helping folks become land owners. Right. Is there a point in time walking that you can look at in the work that you've done where, land ownership became such a pivotal shift in the conversation and an area of focus in this movement?

00:35:04:16 - 00:35:24:23
Unknown
Yeah, I guess it was always that way for me. I had a great grandfather who owned land and sold it to chemical plants, created jobs with his sons and education for his daughters. So I came from a family of believers and economic empowerment. The other thing I want to say, Sam touched on is I want to not lose this.

00:35:25:01 - 00:35:49:22
Unknown
Dean Jones and I had an intense conversation about, helping pastors learn technology in the 1980s, and the reason is so critical. He stopped me, Sam. He said, look, you only have so many semesters to get your degree. I was going for my doctorate. Is you're going to have to take time and focus on a case study. This project you're talking about, it's going to take 20 years, as it were.

00:35:49:22 - 00:36:10:14
Unknown
Dean. I'm going to compromise. Go ahead and get a degree, but I'm going to do a master plan that I will be able to take with me wherever I go. And we're going to use this to measure how much have we developed jobs, housing, economic, employment that is really competitive so that we can keep people in communities.

00:36:10:16 - 00:36:31:14
Unknown
So, yeah, I think, David, it's an ongoing struggle to help the faith community, especially understand this need to be able to help create whatever division that that child has. In your case, you had a vision of doing this. I was so heartbroken because I need you to be the pastor of the church that I was about to lead from the name.

00:36:31:14 - 00:36:51:10
Unknown
You're going to tell all the business now, you're going to tell it all. You're going to tell it. Oh, yeah. I'm so you left that and went and did it. I'm proud of you now, because now you have been thousands of churches and people, but you left me in a way where, oh God, they focus on my human development because I think the key is to develop character.

00:36:51:12 - 00:37:25:05
Unknown
You've got to know your purpose, understand your core, and deal with what God is calling you to do, to answer your question, your last one. Yeah, absolutely. No. I appreciate that, doc. And it's been a blessing. And I hope, I hope one of the lessons that folks will take away from this conversation when we talk about the evolution and of the movement in curriculum and earlier, that there's a need for the training of folk and intentionality about training people, transferring knowledge, information, giving people the opportunity to be in positions of leadership and work.

00:37:25:07 - 00:37:49:07
Unknown
Right, so that they can learn kind of hands in both kind of academic settings, but also experiential settings, as well, going back, thinking about ownership. And again, that kind of Nehemiah piece, you touched on this earlier when we think about our affordable housing world and our ecosystem, a lot of the work tends to focus on the need rightfully right, understandably so around rental.

00:37:49:11 - 00:38:15:11
Unknown
Right? There's a need for affordable rental housing in a country kind of period, full stop. There's also a need for more ownership. There are huge gaps in terms of ownership and the like. And so when you think about both the institutional church owning land. And it helping members and or folks in the community owned own homes and the like talk about what you've seen in terms of like the importance of that, the evolution of that.

00:38:15:11 - 00:38:43:00
Unknown
And as we think for the next 20, 50 years, 100 years going forward, what role, what's that balance between congregations thinking about owning land and helping their members own land, and balancing that with the need for kind of affordable rental in the in the space? Yeah. I think, what our industry yearns for is, responsible, mission driven stewardship.

00:38:43:02 - 00:39:15:01
Unknown
The movement to do community land trust is really a call for that. What I would say, you know, is that the ability to, the ability to recognize the needs in your community, gather the expertise. Is it through partnership or educating yourself? And, look at your role as being a long term steward and owner of rental housing and an enabler of homeownership for those who are ready for it.

00:39:15:02 - 00:39:49:04
Unknown
That's really the the perfect combination. And I always say to folks, you know, to win a war, you do need mercenaries. You need people who just know how to fight. But everybody can't be a mercenary. You need some patriots mixed in there. And so the role of folks, you know, churches and synagogues and parishes that are focused on owning assets long term, being good stewards of it, both in terms of, you know, making sure the buildings are run well.

00:39:49:04 - 00:40:15:18
Unknown
But if somebody is a little behind on their rent, you know, you're going to you're going to work with them. I think, that's indispensable. It's necessary. And, and I think every functioning, compassionate housing ecosystem needs that, in order to be what we hope for. Yeah. So. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That's such a great perspective.

00:40:15:18 - 00:40:44:21
Unknown
And and yet, you know, just thinking of my own seminary experience, that's not something that got inculcated in us that we were taking over a stewardship of, of, of an investment of generations past and that we were to steward it forward and to do good with it as, as as time went forward. How would we pass on this inheritance, this gift that we receive to be a blessing to the to the community and to our church members and those in the surrounding neighborhood?

00:40:44:23 - 00:41:09:12
Unknown
Yeah, know that it's such a, you know, an important understanding of, of, of kind of gratitude and, and also, you know, the circle of blessing that we've received this and it's our responsibility to pass it on. Just think of all of the church owned properties right around the country. And, you know, we've done a lot of work in our in the United Methodist Conference here in the Baltimore, Washington area.

00:41:09:13 - 00:41:39:16
Unknown
And, you know, the 600 plus churches owning tens of thousands of acres of land. And so much of it's just sitting kind of underdeveloped under utilized at the moment. How to how do we create a systematic plan for that and utilize the resources collectively of, of the United Methodist Church, for example, to, to do to do good with that, to be a blessing for the current people that we consider our congregants and our parishioners in the community and for generations to come see him.

00:41:39:16 - 00:42:03:08
Unknown
Stay there for a minute. Have you in your conversations within the conference and within the United Methodist Church, writ large and with other denominations? Right. Folks that you talked to who are in denominational leadership? Are you seeing a lot of that thinking that, hey, we need to have an intentionality as the institutional church, so to speak, about what it means for us to steward land control.

00:42:03:08 - 00:42:38:07
Unknown
You know, control this land and think about what it means to use it for God's good purposes. Are you hearing and seeing much of that? Yeah. Well, the beginnings of it. Yes, absolutely. I think every conference in the Methodist church is divided into conferences, similar to dioceses for for folks that know Catholic or fiscal language. But it's the geographic territories and, and the mainline churches own that land, and the local churches just operated in trust of and that whole understanding of the larger body owning this collectively and being tasked to do good for the community.

00:42:38:09 - 00:43:02:02
Unknown
Is this really kind of a newer way of thinking about a thing or an advancing way that, you know, traditionally it's just been the local church, the local parish that's responsible for its neighborhood. But to be thinking collectively of, you know, all of this property that's held on behalf of church A, B, or of the denomination A, B or C, that we have a larger responsibility to think of.

00:43:02:02 - 00:43:25:21
Unknown
How do we pass that on? And I think so many denominations, at least the mainline churches these days, are all facing financial challenges and aging buildings and infrastructure that we need to find some solutions. And and we need to be creative about it. And, and if we depend on just each one local church at a time, making a local decision, that's not going to lead to the best outcome.

00:43:26:01 - 00:44:01:08
Unknown
That probably will be a downward spiral of an outcome. It really is. It's an interesting thing in the conversations we're having nationally about the need for the opportunity for denominations to think about, how they can be supportive, writ large. And yet that dynamic in some cases where local congregations see national denominations as not so much the friend or the helper, and sometimes they do say, you talked about something, Joaquin, I'm going to come to you with where Sam talked about, in some respects, the practical challenges that congregations or denominations can face.

00:44:01:08 - 00:44:28:12
Unknown
When you think about, okay, maybe we've gotten over that hump and we're saying, let's do some development now. We're in the world of development and all the challenges that come with Joaquin and your experience working with various congregations. What are some of the practical challenges that you're seeing that, congregations and or denominational level entities have to deal with and equip themselves for when thinking about doing affordable housing or community development?

00:44:28:14 - 00:44:51:10
Unknown
Well, I, I want to say early in, Sam, thank you for bringing that point to the table. It's a dual process and it's a parallel track. We need to be developing stronger leaders who will be doing the thinking about where we are going. That's why I'm so, big on this, you know, leadership development, seed the harvest, working with young leaders who will become the leaders of the church tomorrow.

00:44:51:10 - 00:45:18:07
Unknown
Because not just the buildings are aging, the people are aging. You need those young abuse. Then the other side of that same equation is to come preach and teach the sound doctrine. Oh my God, the church is doctrine is dated and it's erroneous, especially when it comes down to the African American, or, if you will, African theology, because the reality is, we're living in a world now that is becoming more and more divisive.

00:45:18:09 - 00:45:52:00
Unknown
And the message of the evangelical church, especially, that is, of European, is really, you know, black folk come and join white trade, you know? And believe me, there are people saying that on line on screens and, you know, we are ignorant. We didn't go to seminary. We don't know what we're talking about. And I think there's a need to really get some sound teaching and preaching in place and to develop young people who come in and with all these different skill sets and find out where the team is strong and where it's weak and strengthen it.

00:45:52:02 - 00:46:17:12
Unknown
And that's where we've been focusing on a lot in building the collective. And even in the cities, looking at the different cities campus needs a totally different from South Florida. And South Florida's needs are different from Prince George's County. But we talk and we try to figure out how do we navigate this when it was just different because the AME church was born out of United Methodist Church, my grandfather was a CCM pastor.

00:46:17:13 - 00:46:42:08
Unknown
I became United Methodist then I ended up going to school and becoming a United Church of Christ ordained pastor. So I'm really very ecumenical, but that has been a real trap for a lot of us. And we died there in Kirk. I want to pick up on this notion of the equipping, folks, for this work. When we talk about the the evolution kind of shaping the future, right.

00:46:42:08 - 00:47:06:22
Unknown
Where do we go with this? So again, you've worked again as both financier and developer in terms of the some of those practical challenges. If folks want to get into this work, whether you're a denominational leader at a regional level, national level, congregational level, whether you're a local government person who says, hey, we ought to support these churches doing this work, etc., what would you say are a few practical things and challenges that folks need to say?

00:47:06:22 - 00:47:37:08
Unknown
We need to make sure the faith partner is equipped with these things to help them navigate these waters. So, so one of the things I can answer that question in several ways, but I think one of the traps that, congregations, single churches, parishes might fall into is to them, development is what can I do with my property like this, this property I own.

00:47:37:10 - 00:48:11:07
Unknown
And that's meaningful. And that could be a start. But the the, the most prominent successful preacher developers that I'm aware of, most of them didn't even start with their property. Their vision was, how can I transform my community? How can I compare a compel? The mayor and my city to give me sell me that parcel so that we could realize our vision?

00:48:11:09 - 00:48:51:23
Unknown
And so the first and most important thing I would say is don't limit your vision to the parcel you own. Have a vision for transforming your community and make it holistic. And then compel you know, government stakeholders, elected officials to help you realize your vision, whether you're talking about Calvin Botts in Harlem, Reverend Flake, Floyd Flake and Elaine Flake in Queens, the Nehemiah work in Brooklyn, now led by Brawley, Pastor David Brawley on and on.

00:48:52:01 - 00:49:22:06
Unknown
The common denominator is their ability to look so far beyond the actual property. They owned, to having a vision for transforming their neighborhood, which required them to compel, folks, they didn't control and acquire property they didn't own and obtain resources they didn't have. And if you're not thinking that way, I think you're off to a bad start.

00:49:22:06 - 00:49:48:07
Unknown
Yeah. And working. You've done that work in South Florida, I'm think, where Kirk was that notion of talk a little bit about what that's look like in South Florida and how that might help churches, with their long term sustainability, because we know so many churches are in crisis and challenge now. We had, the county mayor and commissioners, we went and bought land, actually infill lots.

00:49:48:09 - 00:50:12:01
Unknown
It's got a building on them and we brought developers to the table who could build contractors, who could build turn them into developers. But in addition to that, as we saw, the mayor started hearing about this, saying, look, what can we do to help the churches who own property buy property outside? I think Kirk makes a good point that most of the successful pastors bought property outside of their facility.

00:50:12:03 - 00:50:39:10
Unknown
Jeremiah Wright did that in Chicago and built housing. And then as as it turns out, at the same time, he's preaching sound theology. He's got this young senator sitting out there who is a community organizer named Barack Obama, and Barack hears him and decides to run for the Senate. Next thing you know, he's running for president. So Jeremiah Wright was doing development of both human capacity and physical capacity in this little area there in Chicago.

00:50:39:12 - 00:51:03:04
Unknown
And I think that we can look at other models in Texas. The I can't think of his name, Kirby John Caldwell, who's doing something very aggressive in the 90s down there, building shopping centers, in your area right now. My good friend is, is is but the Kingdom Square, Anthony McCain and turn that around and doing other stuff.

00:51:03:04 - 00:51:29:05
Unknown
So this is a wonderful opportunity is a great window of opportunity. And we just need to build leaders from that vision and take it to the next level. And Sam, I want to use that to kind of transition into a pitch, stay where we are, but really transition to a real conversation about relevance, right. The Kirk talked about how a faith community, the advice of, hey, think about the broader community, not just a parcel.

00:51:29:07 - 00:52:03:11
Unknown
In your experience, what do you how important is that? Do you think, for faith communities to think about? How do we remain answering the question about relevance? How are we staying relevant, and how does this work potentially tie in to us being relevant in this current context in which we find ourselves? Yeah, that's a great question. And getting outside, outside your building, outside your four walls is the first step, having good relationships with your with the community members and the political leaders and the business leaders.

00:52:03:11 - 00:52:35:14
Unknown
I think all of that, and all of that is not very well emphasized in seminary training. I mean, it really has such narrow focus and and doing the community building, community outreach and, relationship building the piece is so important. And how how we do that, I think we just need to get much better at it as far as seminary education goes, that that mission driven development is so important.

00:52:35:14 - 00:53:02:07
Unknown
And, you know, and how do we understand the mission? Different denominations, of course, operate differently. But in the Methodist church here, we have an itinerant itinerant pastor. So people don't stay in a community all that long, which is a problem for getting to to know the community that if you're there, you know, five or 7 or 10 years, you know, it takes a year or two just to get to know who your neighbors are and to find out what's happening with the community.

00:53:02:07 - 00:53:36:09
Unknown
And so the focus on of seminary education to be a lot more on on relationship building and community, community outreach, I think is really an important, important piece. And so let me ask you also about congregational identity. How might some congregations are going to be afraid, right, that this may change our identity? And when you think about, in your experience dealing with congregations who have to deal with that issue, what's some advice we may have about as you go into this space and you're thinking about, will this change our identity?

00:53:36:09 - 00:53:56:11
Unknown
Yes. No. Maybe. So our congregations may approach that. Yeah. You've really just got to trust. Trust in God. That's that's kind of the bottom line, right? Because a lot of folks know church as just this community of safe space, meaning it's people like me that I've known for a long time and and. Oh, yeah, by the way, the neighborhood's changed over time.

00:53:56:11 - 00:54:20:03
Unknown
And we see in urban areas, we just see that all the time that the congregation as a congregation ages, it looks less and less like the surrounding community. And so having intentional practices of connecting with the community and learning to build trusted relationships with, with the community, and learning to give up control, I think that that's such an important thing.

00:54:20:03 - 00:54:40:21
Unknown
And as you say, all of those sometimes makes congregations pretty fearful of of their neighbors and not knowing who their neighbors are and and how best to use their assets then to serve as a blessing to the, to the neighborhood. Yeah. So being intentional about that I think is so, so important. Absolutely. Why can you want jump in.

00:54:40:23 - 00:55:09:17
Unknown
Yeah. Do I want to jump in as hard in this scream? I haven't heard you say Curt made a good point about, Floyd Flake. Floyd Flake, who was a congressman, initially had someone else running his nonprofits. And as he left Congress, he went and brought the community outreach. At one point, his church was the second leading employer in Queens, second only to LaGuardia airport.

00:55:09:19 - 00:55:31:13
Unknown
So, you know, you can really if you got a vision and you got a visionary leader, you begin to realize, I can't do this by myself. So who should I turn to for these various areas of strength? And you build your capacity that way. And Floyd Flake did a great job. So did Calvin Betts following in the footsteps of, Samuel Proctor.

00:55:31:15 - 00:55:58:01
Unknown
He started a a, credit union. And that credit union became one of the, the guiding forces for banking for that community. So it's a whole lot of areas where we can impact fully, make results happen if we just have patience and vision. And, Kirk, it may sound like a cliche of sorts, this notion of, a house of worship, doing a housing project or doing, you know, a community facility.

00:55:58:01 - 00:56:24:12
Unknown
It provides the healthy food options or affordable childcare or daycare, those kinds of things. When you think about the the notion of as a developer or financier to someone in community, what's a message that you would have for faith community? Again, as we look to the future, right. To say this is why these kinds of things matter. And yeah, it's going to be hard, but you can do it right.

00:56:24:12 - 00:56:32:03
Unknown
And so kind of buckle up and let's go. I think two things. One,

00:56:32:04 - 00:56:56:05
Unknown
Don't see conflict and confrontation as something to be avoided. My mother used to say, get mad at who you supposed to get mad at and fight who you supposed to fight. And the idea is there is a moment for that. But make sure it's, in the, you know, in order to advance your community, in a meaningful way.

00:56:56:07 - 00:57:21:03
Unknown
And so make sure it's visionary. It's bold. It's large, and, and it's going to create the kind of transformation that matters. And fundamentally, my second point is housing is a bundle of goods and services. It's not only the physical space you live in. And so don't just create a housing project on a corner somewhere.

00:57:21:04 - 00:57:52:19
Unknown
You know, what's in the housing bundle? Are the schools functioning? Do you have recreation space? Are there places to shop or there? You know, job opportunities? Is it safe? Is it near transportation? All the things that folks with money look to and make decisions are based on when they want to buy a home? Yeah, those are the same things we ought to be seeking and creating in our communities for our people, not just here.

00:57:52:19 - 00:58:20:18
Unknown
Here's a cheap apartment or a home. It's got to be more robust than that. And recognition that that like I said, housing is a bundle of goods and services. It's not just the space you're living. Well, the words, the three words bold, large, and transformation is where we will land the plane. I want to really thank our guests today, for this conversation that reminds us that movements don't appear overnight.

00:58:20:18 - 00:58:52:20
Unknown
They are built through vision, persistence, and people willing to see possibilities where others see limits. Today, Doctor Joaquin Willis, Kirk Goodridge and Doctor Sam Morello have helped tell us the story of faith based development and how it is ultimately a story of relevance of institutions choosing not just to serve communities, but to grow with them. And as we've heard, the blueprint already exists, rooted in history, strengthened by collaboration and guided by purpose.

00:58:52:21 - 00:58:54:16
Unknown
Stay radical.

00:58:54:16 - 00:59:09:06
Unknown
join the growing movement around faith based development, please visit Enterprise community.org backslash FBI and sign up for our email list to get access to news, resources and opportunities from across the country.

00:59:09:06 - 00:59:35:22

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:03
Unknown
Welcome to radical common sense, where faith meets action and community power becomes real solutions. Here we explore how principles become blueprints and how faith institutions are transforming what they already have into what communities truly need. I'm your host, David Bowers, and this is Radical Commonsense, a masterclass in faith based development.

00:00:24:03 - 00:00:48:01

00:00:48:06 - 00:01:22:14
Unknown
Today we step into the arena where possibility becomes reality. Policy. Across the country, faith communities are learning that vision alone isn't enough. Zoning legislation and public investment determine whether housing moves forward or stalls. So the question guiding us is, what policy breakthroughs are driving and will continue to shape faith based development. We'll explore how the rules are evolving, why faith leaders are becoming powerful advocates, and what it takes to turn policy into real homes.

00:01:22:16 - 00:01:44:21
Unknown
Joining me are leaders at the intersection of faith, housing and public policy. LaWanda Mayfield, City Council member and Charlotte, North Carolina, is a champion for equitable housing and inclusive development rooted in grassroots organizing. She has helped lead Charlotte's Faith and housing initiative, expanding affordability and opportunity.

00:01:44:21 - 00:02:10:02
Unknown
Vicki being co faculty director of the NYU Furman Center and professor of law at NYU, is a national leader in housing policy. Her work has shaped how cities approach affordability and land use, including her service as New York City's deputy mayor for housing and economic development, and Colleen Green, director of the Washington, DC Department of Housing and Community Development.

00:02:10:04 - 00:02:27:14
Unknown
She's been a key driver of affordable housing in Washington, DC. A critical partner to enterprise, her office has helped support 28 congregations developing housing, providing funding, expertise and policy pathways. Ladies, welcome to the show.

00:02:27:14 - 00:02:34:05
Unknown
So we're going to jump right into it today. We know that every housing project exists within a framework of rules.

00:02:34:05 - 00:03:00:06
Unknown
And those rules determine timelines, costs and even whether projects can happen at all. Council Member Mayfield I'd like to start with you. Why is policy such a decisive factor in helping us think about how we can scale faith based development? Again, thank you for the invitation. But what we have to realize is that most of the barriers aren't about willingness.

00:03:00:06 - 00:03:25:20
Unknown
They are about the rules and the. Faith organizations often have land and have a mission, but policy determines whether that land can realistically be used for housing. And if zoning timelines or costs don't align, projects cause stall before they even start. Thanks. Council member and Vicky, I want to ask you, you've had the benefit of looking at things locally in New York, but also nationally.

00:03:26:02 - 00:03:51:07
Unknown
When you think about why policy is such a decisive factor in scaling faith based development, what would you add to that piece? I would add, and thank you for having me, that I would add the complications of it all. You're asking a congregation that isn't familiar with land use, zoning, all of those things. Suddenly you're asking them to navigate what is an incredibly complicated, overly complicated system?

00:03:51:09 - 00:04:11:18
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. And Colleen, you serving as a director of the Department of Housing? Let me ask you about barriers. Council Member Mayfield talked about barriers in your experience, and you've been both on kind of multiple sides in government and outside of government. What are some of those common barriers that you see when houses of worship are trying to approach doing development?

00:04:11:20 - 00:04:35:01
Unknown
And how might you suggest to them things that they may want to look out for and get prepared for? Well, I think it's a very confusing process for the most part. And if you don't have experience in doing development, it's there's a multilayered multifaceted to it. And so having a good partner and a good development consultant, someone that you trust is really important in doing that.

00:04:35:03 - 00:04:58:10
Unknown
The other barriers just kind of just general understanding of how it's done. And the other two representatives on this podcast have said it's timing. Right? So it's definitely you have to be in it for the long haul. It's not microwavable. Right. So understanding that and having commitment to the process and understanding the steps of the process is really important.

00:04:58:12 - 00:05:23:03
Unknown
Yeah. Council member, Director Green talked about, this notion of it's not microwavable and this notion of how do we prepare houses of worship for this work. And so in the city of Charlotte, do you want to share a little bit about what you all are doing to help equip and prepare congregations, for this work, the kind of investment that the city is making?

00:05:23:05 - 00:05:54:04
Unknown
Well, I try to keep it short because it's an exciting opportunity. We're working with enterprise, but what we identified is that the knee and a desire is there. We know that housing affordability across the nation is a major challenge. So what we've been able to do is create and identify a cohort of 12 different religious institutions that are now going through a training where they are not only learning about zoning, they are learning about planning.

00:05:54:06 - 00:06:27:11
Unknown
And the City of Charlotte put a financial investment of $2.5 million in our budget at the beginning. We've also have funding allocated through Congresswoman Alma Adams to, representative on the national level, where we are offsetting those costs, we are paying for the training. We will also help with some of those pre-development costs, because that's a major barrier when you're looking at identifying land and looking at how we can directly impact not only the unit count and the allowable uses.

00:06:27:17 - 00:06:52:02
Unknown
This gives us the ability to make sure that they're educated. So whatever developer they are speaking with, they go into that conversation with a wealth of knowledge and don't walk away where they've signed a contract, where they basically given away land that may be worth millions of dollars and have a development that the congregation or the community can access to its affordability levels.

00:06:52:02 - 00:07:31:21

00:07:31:21 - 00:07:49:13
Unknown
Honestly, I am thankful that it was not a hard lift. Our religious community has stepped into this role many years ago with identifying land and then working through our housing trust fund, which is a fund that we put on the ballot every other year.

00:07:49:13 - 00:08:15:02
Unknown
And the community supports. In 2024, the community supported $100 million investment through our Housing Trust fund. So to be able to present to the community, look, we know that housing affordability and accessibility is a challenge. We had the ability to have those Arpa dollars. Those were one time usage. So through those Arpa dollars, we identified the first 1.5 million.

00:08:15:02 - 00:08:38:21
Unknown
And then we were able in 2024 and then 2025 when I presented to my council, which is we make up a body of 11, it takes a minimum of six votes to approve or deny. There was no pushback. There was actually a lot of encouragement and support of, adding the additional 1 million to give us a budget line item for that 2.5 million.

00:08:38:23 - 00:09:01:16
Unknown
And that helped us to move not only our policy language or, but it also helped for not only my colleagues, but for the community to see that we're putting the money where we say our values lie, and that is making sure there is housing accessibility for all of our residents here and those that may be coming into the Charlotte area.

00:09:01:18 - 00:09:20:14
Unknown
Vicky, we know there's a lot of conversation about housing affordability and the challenges, of meeting the housing needs in our country and that a lot of the work is going to have to take place at the state and local level. Right. We need support from the federal government, obviously, but a lot of things are happening state and local level.

00:09:20:15 - 00:09:41:09
Unknown
When we think about faith based development and some of the barriers that we've talked about. Right. Can you talk a little bit about what you seen, you and your team and your research about some of the innovative approaches around the country, at the state or local level to, removing or reducing some of those barriers to faith based development?

00:09:41:11 - 00:10:09:11
Unknown
Sure. I mean, about nine states have passed or considered, what we call faith based affordable housing acts, or sometimes they're called the yes in God's backyard. And those acts tend to say on land owned by a faith based organization, you get a bonus for, how much you could build. You may get relief from things like minimum parking requirements, height restrictions, those kinds of things.

00:10:09:13 - 00:10:36:22
Unknown
And that's crucial because that allows a faith based organization to build as of right, rather than having to go through a long and uncertain, public hearing process and the delay that that involves. Vicky, have you seen any trends you and your team and what you've seen with it's happened at state and local level. What has been the key to some of the success of getting those, policies enacted in the past?

00:10:36:22 - 00:11:03:05
Unknown
Have you seen some common trends or themes about what, what local folks have done to to get those things on the books? So the, the faith based, affordable housing Acts have really required a coalition, and it's required a coalition that says, look, we really need affordable housing. And these faith based organizations have land that could be used for affordable housing, but it's a double win situation.

00:11:03:06 - 00:11:29:09
Unknown
You both get affordable housing and you say is a community anchor, right. And all of the services and all of the good that it's bringing for the community. New York has seen enormous numbers of congregations have to close, and that leaves a hole in the community, a very big hole. And so solving both of those problems at the same time is a real win win.

00:11:29:09 - 00:11:53:01

00:11:53:01 - 00:12:06:20
Unknown
around the country who may be hopefully listening, watching, this notion of why the District of Columbia decided to make this kind of investment in faith based development and on kind of multiple fronts.

00:12:06:22 - 00:12:28:21
Unknown
Well, I think the the main reason is the push for affordable housing. Right. And when churches have land that is under utilized or not used, then that's a great opportunity to create affordable housing, right? They already own the land. If they're partners in the development, then it doesn't. You don't have to do an acquisition for the land costs making that go up.

00:12:29:02 - 00:12:54:11
Unknown
So it's a great opportunity again, to create affordable housing. I think that that's one of the things I think what, Vicky Bean has said about sustaining the community. Right. You can't really have successful affordable housing without having good community, right. And good neighbors. And, having a church that's an anchor, for affordable housing does incentivize community development.

00:12:54:13 - 00:13:13:01
Unknown
And the commitment that a church can have to developing anything around that housing. Right. So whether you need daycare with that, because, you have a, incentivized population already there, that's part of the church community or that's acting around the community. They can also do that. If they need a grocery store. They can also do that.

00:13:13:01 - 00:13:39:09
Unknown
I know that, in New York, there was a lot of community development corporations that were started by churches signifying their commitment to not only doing housing, but increasing the benefits that are coming to their community. So that's another reason why it you get, I want to say, more bang for your buck because you're doing something in a really consolidated, comprehensive way.

00:13:39:10 - 00:14:15:18
Unknown
So you're touching a lot of the points as well as saving that anchor, that the church always is. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. You you said something really critical director, about the notion of connecting this to even kind of the goals that a local jurisdiction may have. Right. And I wonder, council member, your work in Charlotte, were there some particular goals that the city had around, you know, producing x number of new affordable housing, opportunities units, that you all were able to connect this work around faith based development to.

00:14:15:20 - 00:14:56:17
Unknown
I would definitely say yes. We under Mayor Liles, who has been, mayor in the city for, I believe, 7 or 8 times at this point, there was definitely a commitment around the price point housing, how we look at where development is going. And I definitely agree that when we think about religious institutions and we think about the role that they play in community, whether that is the feeding program or at the school program or school, or even the reimagining of space inside of that building to become an incubator.

00:14:56:19 - 00:15:29:07
Unknown
When we're looking at what we say, a solid a ten minute neighborhood where you have access to employment, to training, to multiple public transportation options as well as entertainment, that institution is that anchor piece. We're getting access to moving about around the city. So we wanted to make sure, and we're still in the process of attempting to make sure that throughout the city of almost a million residents just in Charlotte proper, over a million.

00:15:29:07 - 00:16:09:06
Unknown
When you add in Charlotte Mecklenburg, which is our county, that we are diversifying where housing is going because the other conversation that we have to have doing this is that we don't want to be the ones that re concentrate poverty. So when we talk about affordability and we talk about workforce and lower income housing, that cannot be concentrated in 1 or 2 districts or 1 or 2 wards, it needs to be diversified throughout the entire city, especially in our areas that may see more wealth in order to balance the amenities and the accessibility to work as well as play.

00:16:09:08 - 00:16:54:15
Unknown
You know, Vicky, I want to pick up on where the council member was there in terms of this notion of there's been obviously this growing movement. You alluded to it earlier, Vicky, around kind of yes. And God's backyard League Egbe, as it's been called legislation around the country. Say a little bit, Vicky, about the land use component, the zoning component, and how from a policy standpoint, you know, elected officials, government officials can think about land use and how to activate faith on land, in a way that can further public policy goals and aims around like the councilman was talking about, the concentration of poverty, making sure people are, have more access to amenities,

00:16:54:15 - 00:17:32:08
Unknown
higher opportunity areas and the like. So anything Vicky you'd like to speak to on that? Yeah. I think it's really a critical question because often the answer is we'll just up zone. Right. Give people a little bit more fa or floor area ratio, or floor area rights in order to develop. But often in especially areas that haven't had a lot of affordable housing that the council member was talking about, you've got low density areas with height restrictions and parking requirements and side yard requirements and a whole plethora of things.

00:17:32:10 - 00:17:57:19
Unknown
And so you've got to really pay attention to every single one of them, right? It's so hard to develop housing. It's so costly today. And costs are going up that you have to pare away everything that's not absolutely essential in order to get housing that can be affordable. Right. And so you've got to pay attention to all of those different elements, and you've got to pay attention to the process.

00:17:57:19 - 00:18:29:17
Unknown
Right. It's the process is discretionary. That means it takes a lot of time and imposes a lot of risk. So the more that you can make things as of right, here's what you can do. Religious organization on your land go for it. The better off we all are. Vicky that's and David. Yeah go ahead Councilman cut I would love to add that when we think about the gig being south, policy changes in our timeline, it helps to reduce the uncertainty, which is one of the biggest risks that's in development.

00:18:29:17 - 00:19:02:11
Unknown
We have fast timelines which is which basically equals lower carrying costs and more viable projects. And we lower the upfront cost, which makes it easier for the organizations to even get started. Get council member. You talked about the timelines. I like to refer to it as the HOV lane right, for Faith-Based projects. So I'm curious if any of you all would like to say a word more about the importance of that, the timeline, kind of what we can do, what jurisdictions can do, who may be considering this to expedite, right.

00:19:02:12 - 00:19:23:13
Unknown
The process. And how important that is. To address the timelines. Director, you want to speak on that from I mean, I think what I understand from the history of DC zoning laws, I think the we had a 1954 laws are still on the book. And then we had a change in 2016, and there's some still 1954 laws that we're having to deal with.

00:19:23:13 - 00:19:50:17
Unknown
So I think there's an opportunity there to do some BS in DC as of. Right, as well as, you know, the permit process. Right. That's also very costly. And if you for for developments that include or that are faith based, maybe figuring out a fast track for that because there's not, you know, it should not be over complicated on, on, on a church site.

00:19:50:17 - 00:20:26:05
Unknown
Right. So, I think that that's also another opportunity as well as updating the zoning laws as of right around faith based communities and doing exemptions. That makes sense. And that fit, again, the model for that congregation. So I think that one of the things that's really important that if you are serving your congregation, if you have seniors or you have families and things like that, that's a great lane to stay in because you have, you know, you're you're set with the population, market to fill the units.

00:20:26:05 - 00:20:49:01
Unknown
And if you can sort of match that as a rationale for fast tracking a project, that that makes all the sense in the world. But yeah, I agree with both of these points. Yep. And, Vicky, I want to ask you, wearing both your research hat and also as, leader in New York City, right. Housing Department as well.

00:20:49:05 - 00:21:14:20
Unknown
Your experiences, has there been push back to the notion of granting houses of worship, kind of the act, permitting faster permitting approvals or by right development? Has there been any sort of pushback out there? And again, thinking about people who may be listening to this saying, oh, you know what, we think we want to try to do that in our jurisdiction, kind of hear, hear the arguments that you need to be prepared to address.

00:21:15:02 - 00:21:54:22
Unknown
If you're going to try to posit that as something that ought to be done in your jurisdiction. It's a great question. I mean, you will always hear pushback for housing, no matter almost any time. But the arguments that that we hear from communities are we don't want to fast track. We want to make sure that they're we've fully considered all of the environmental impacts and fully thought all that through and done a parking study and a traffic congestion study and all of that, all of which takes a lot of time and a lot of money and then on the other side, you, you, you face sometimes the, the housing agencies that are saying,

00:21:54:22 - 00:22:13:20
Unknown
look, this is a relatively small site. We're only going to get for four affordable units or 20 affordable units, and we're going to spend the same amount of time on that, that we would on, on a place that will give us 100 units. And why should we do the smaller when we could do the larger. Right.

00:22:13:22 - 00:22:37:12
Unknown
And so you get both of those reactions, and I think one of the at least in New York, a key issue is that a lot of sites are small, they're infill, they're a small congregation, a small church. And we need ways to make that work as quickly as possible. Otherwise you just can't afford it. Yeah, it just doesn't pencil it directly.

00:22:37:12 - 00:23:03:01
Unknown
Go ahead. I also think that, as I'm sitting here listening, I think that as we try to create homeownership opportunities, faith based land is a great way to do that because again, there's congregations in place with families that you can also get them homeowner education and buyers education and prepare them, for, the homes that would be built on the land, giving them opportunity to buy affordable homes.

00:23:03:01 - 00:23:26:17
Unknown
And they stay within that congregation and community. So I think that's also a great opportunity for exemption as cities think about if you're building homeownership and, you know, I think, you know, duplex with, owner's duplex with rental, you know, on it so that I think, that's a really great opportunity as well. So you become a homeowner, a landlord, and you also create affordable units above it.

00:23:26:22 - 00:23:51:02
Unknown
That's a great model for our faith based land. I want to stay directly with you for a minute. And council member Vicky, I'm going to come to you all on this as well. So I've seen you in action in terms of creativity and thinking innovatively about how to engage faith community. What I mean by that is in some of the meetings we've been in with you and your team, with office hours, where you challenge folks in those meetings in a good way, right.

00:23:51:02 - 00:24:19:14
Unknown
Hey, have you thought about this? Have you thought about that again? And create created? So what you're speaking to also is this notion of localities trying to be creative. Hey, we've got a homeownership goal. Hey, we've got these folks over here at land. Let's think about how we might activate that. Can you say a word about how important it is for jurisdictions, states, local governments and others in the ecosystem to be creative, to be innovative and what that might actually lead to, kind of the benefits of community impact that could come from that.

00:24:19:14 - 00:25:03:17
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, I definitely think thinking outside the box is really important, particularly as costs are rising and everything is so much expensive. Utility costs are going up. Just everything is expensive and it's so hard to, keep costs down because the churches own the land. And that land cost is kind of something that you can take out of the equation, because I've owned the land for so long, even using innovative construction types that you haven't used before, whether you're doing modular or, you know, just to make things faster, I mean, this is a real opportunity, that churches have to do things that are innovative to kind of test the waters and, and try

00:25:03:19 - 00:25:28:06
Unknown
different models of things. And, and rental is not always it. Right. Like home ownership. And and if you need to do a, homeowner's association fee to keep, you know, the church going and, and keep it, you know, alive and in the community there's there's opportunity there. So just thinking of different rental streams or income streams that can happen, as you're creating a development, doesn't all have it could be mixed use.

00:25:28:12 - 00:25:55:13
Unknown
It can be, homeownership rental or a combination of rental, homeownership, really kind of focusing on what's needed in that community or what you're willing to do. And what is the sort of planning goals of that community or the the goals of the locality and what how you can contribute? One of the things that, we try to do in DC is have access to affordable housing and high income areas, right?

00:25:55:15 - 00:26:23:01
Unknown
There's a lot of churches in high income areas that have not done anything with their land, and their congregations are also maybe not as strong as they once were. And that that's also an opportunity. So yeah, definitely trying to think out the box creatively in every aspect is a great opportunity. Yeah, it's interesting. I always say to people, you know, suburban urban renewal, red state, blue state, purple state, you have houses of worship in every part of the country, right?

00:26:23:01 - 00:26:51:03
Unknown
Poor areas, high opportunity, wealthier areas, everything in between. Council Member Mayfield, you want to say a word about the the importance of local government leaders being creative and innovative. When you're thinking about leaning into this space around faith based development and what could potentially the kind of impact that could come from that? Well, I would say it first starts with us listening to community and not government coming in with a plan of what it is that we think would work.

00:26:51:05 - 00:27:14:16
Unknown
Our role is to walk side by side. So you think about the conversation of home ownership. One of the things that programs that we've recently introduced are accessory dwelling units. So ADUs. So that single family home depending on the size of the lots, it may be big enough where they could put an 800 to 1000 square foot home on that land.

00:27:14:16 - 00:27:50:00
Unknown
That's a separate unit that very well could be rental capacity, it could be a mother. And lastly, it could be for that college student coming back home, or it could be a rental in the community. So at this point, we're really looking at any and all options that are viable options, as well as looking at our policy language, because at the end of the day, if we're making it difficult for that development to happen, and recognizing that our policy language has created some of the barriers, we're not helping the situation.

00:27:50:06 - 00:28:22:14
Unknown
So what does that look like? It may look like a aido. It may look like a smaller unit on that property, or it may look like a townhome or quad or triplex. So how do we make sure that our policies don't assume that organizations are ready to build that? We are making sure that we have you in a position for you to still learn what you need to learn, and identifying that there's not enough support for the early stage development, the pre-development part, and the complexities that come along with that.

00:28:22:15 - 00:28:50:07
Unknown
How can we be helpful in our policies and help to ensure that we maneuver? We remove some of the challenges that are created when you're trying to move into this space. Accessibility, not just affordability. Council member. Appreciate that. Listen, we've been having a great conversation so far talking about policy at a systems level, but change doesn't happen without people stepping in to that space.

00:28:50:09 - 00:29:04:00
Unknown
And in today's this is the calling segment, Reverend Will Ed Green shares a powerful testimony about how his church took on not only development in Montgomery County, Maryland, but advocacy as well.

00:29:04:00 - 00:29:06:01

00:29:06:01 - 00:29:31:03
Unknown
We wanted to build a coalition of people to have a conversation, not just about our project, but the way that it might inspire exponential, housing development by other houses of worship and how we might facilitate that. As long as we were values aligned. And for us, those values really centered on making practical reparations for the ways that we had benefited from and participated in the historically racist zoning policies and practices here in Montgomery County.

00:29:31:05 - 00:30:00:11
Unknown
So we pulled together a group of 23 faith leaders representing six different faith traditions and seven different denominations to have a conversation about what the values we would want to see reflected in a zoning text amendment would look like, and work together to help get it passed here in the county. I'm excited to say that our congregation will be the first or one of the first to use that zoning text amendment to build 123 units of rental housing and 12 affordable for purchase townhomes here on our campus in downtown Silver Spring.

00:30:00:13 - 00:30:08:04
Unknown
We are partnering with enterprise and the development of those units, so it's especially exciting to be here today.

00:30:08:04 - 00:30:31:02
Unknown
As you can see, faith communities can do more than just work within the rules. They can help rewrite them. And enterprise is excited to partner with silver Spring United Methodist Church to develop new homes. Now let's jump back into our discussion. Council member Mayfield, why are faith leaders uniquely positioned to influence housing policy?

00:30:31:04 - 00:31:07:03
Unknown
First and foremost, they are the trusted voices in our communities. They see housing instability firsthand with those that come through their doors, need and assistance, need and guidance needing a home, a refuge. And they often already serve the populations that are most impacted. And let me ask you, Vicki, let me ask you this again, wearing kind of multiple hats, one of the things we've heard over the years and you hear talked about, which is real, the declining numbers of folks who attend houses of worship.

00:31:07:05 - 00:31:31:20
Unknown
Right. You hear about kind of maybe the declining strength of the organized church. And I always say, I'm saying church in quotes to speak to any faith community, right? Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever it may be Buddhist. So a question for you, Vicky, is this notion of houses of worship as advocates leaning in on the housing policy? How are they received?

00:31:31:22 - 00:31:54:06
Unknown
Right. In your experience, do they bring Councilmember Mayfield talked about the clout they bring. Do you think that carries, true. Right across the country in in all kind of communities? You know, yes. No. Maybe so. And and if not so much, are there things that faith communities, can do more to be effective? I think absolutely.

00:31:54:08 - 00:32:21:02
Unknown
The faith based organizations are considered to be trustworthy. They're they are considered to be mission driven, and reasonable about, the different kinds of issues that may come up. I think the, you know, they're also regarded as creative, right? You see churches doing all kinds of things, sharing spaces, having having their Sunday school rooms, the daycare centers during the week, and things like that.

00:32:21:02 - 00:32:46:20
Unknown
And so, so they are very valued partners. I think the government worries that, you know, do they have enough, expertise? Do they have the the staying power to stay in what is often, four to 6 to 8 year, timeline? Do they have, you know, are they going to have enough time to really devote to this kind of, of project?

00:32:46:22 - 00:33:15:11
Unknown
But I think the governments have been good about working with enterprise, working with others to provide education, to really show, faith based organizations what's involved and how what they should expect. So they go in with eyes wide open. But absolutely, they are trusted messengers in terms of the needs of the community. Director Green, let me ask you a question about the faith community being advocates for housing policy when they're not working

00:33:15:11 - 00:33:16:14
Unknown
specific project.

00:33:16:14 - 00:33:47:22
Unknown
How important is it for the faith community to be down at, you know, City Hall, so to speak, pushing for more for housing, affordable housing when it's not just them coming in for their specific project? Well, I think it's really important because I think that what one, faith based organization does affects the other. Right? So I think that being united and voice about, this movement to have affordable housing development on their sites and other issues that affect them is really important.

00:33:47:22 - 00:34:12:03
Unknown
And, you know, when, when there's it's it's like putting a fist together. They're more powerful together. So advocating on a number of issues is important. And I think faith based, communities, pastors, reverends, leaders of the church are really trusted voices. When they speak, they come from a moral underpinning. And people can't dispute that. Like, what are their what is their motivation?

00:34:12:03 - 00:34:46:22
Unknown
It's to generally help. I mean, that's what they're there for. And for that reason, they're trusted and they should advocate. I do want to say that, one of the things as government is putting policy together, it's also important for investors, to to come in to play and partner with that. Right. Like so lenders and investors also should get used to having faith based clients and figuring out what that underwriting should be, because that helps the policy along as well, and how they would be willing to invest.

00:34:46:22 - 00:35:10:05
Unknown
And what a, a faith based development needs to look like and make that really clear and plain, because sometimes it's not clear what, a lender or investor would be comfortable with from a faith based position. And I think that it would be great if, like we have community development organizations and banks, they should have a faith based initiative organization where they're looking for this product.

00:35:10:05 - 00:35:32:21
Unknown
This is really a movement and a product to create housing, whether it's mixed income, affordable housing, what have you really, you know, financial institutions should create a department. Just focus on that. You know, and Colleen, help people understand too. When we talk about faith based development, typically the house of worship is going to have an established development partner.

00:35:33:02 - 00:35:54:20
Unknown
And when they come in like that, from an underwriting standpoint, from an investment standpoint, how much is government looking at or private investor looking at the congregation versus looking at the development partner, or is it kind of a 5050? We're looking at all the above. We're like, we're looking at both. Yeah, right. Because you have to have a development partner that has the expertise has and know how.

00:35:54:20 - 00:36:15:13
Unknown
And in some cases you might want their guarantee on it depending on how involved that they are. And also the congregation, I think the congregation, the church, the board should have a committee if they don't have a CDC set aside or development corporation set aside to do this, that is focused on just this, right, so that they're committed for the long haul.

00:36:15:13 - 00:36:38:07
Unknown
They're meeting on a regular basis about what the timeline is, how this happens, that they're getting educated, they go into conferences, they're meeting on a regular basis with their development team, the consultants and everybody involved, and they're advocating all the time with, the policy as a politicians to make sure, because there's a capital stack that has to be built as well.

00:36:38:08 - 00:37:00:03
Unknown
Right? It's not just the financing that comes from the lender, but in order to create affordability, you may have to have a slug of money that comes from council member. Right. You may have to have a slug of money that comes from the government. So that advocacy also needs to be part of that plan. Yeah. The the beloved capital stack, the beloved capital stack.

00:37:00:03 - 00:37:27:12
Unknown
So I want to ask, Vicki, you a question on the moral side. And council member, use something in terms of like the building or capacity director talked about in terms of these associated entities with the house of worship. So, Council Member, I'm going to actually start with you. How important is it for, when the government has looked at building the capacity of these congregations, the notion of we want to make sure we support them in their efforts.

00:37:27:12 - 00:37:54:04
Unknown
If they're trying to create community development corporations or affiliated entities that can be partners in development. What's been the approach in Charlotte with that? So we really rely on our faith institutions to lead that particular conversation, because all congregations are not the same. Some have different levels of leadership. Some of the leadership is within that church home, some we think of the Catholic diocese.

00:37:54:06 - 00:38:26:02
Unknown
You need to have mode. There are multiple levels of conversations before you can decide to do anything with that land. So the CDC, the city of Charlotte, has the housing and neighborhood Services Department, and we have our housing and Neighborhood Services staff and director of housing. We are there to assist them with their application for the CDC, but they are the ones who are leading the conversation of creating what they believe that the congregation, as well as the community.

00:38:26:04 - 00:38:50:21
Unknown
So our support will also help you identify the survey that you need to distribute amongst the congregation, as well as the neighborhood to identify the support and to help you learn how to interview, to create that board for the CDC, because you need a strong board that has the relationships and the connections, because, again, that capital stack can be a barrier.

00:38:50:23 - 00:39:25:07
Unknown
So you need those banking executives to be a part of your internal conversations. And have their buy in to help get into certain roles. But we really attempt to walk side by side with our community versus government coming in because we've done that. We've done that for decades. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't. We're really being conscious and intentional to walk alongside our religious institutions in order for them to tell us, what is it that you need, and how can we help fill that gap?

00:39:25:09 - 00:39:55:10
Unknown
Yeah. Critical piece. Vicky, I want to ask you about the moral case vis-a-vis the economic case. Right. So when conc when we think about the notion of faith based development, growing this industry, growing this ecosystem, how important is it? The director talked about kind of the moral underpinnings of this. How important is it for the moral case to be made for investing in kind of faith based development versus the the economics of it?

00:39:55:10 - 00:40:27:19
Unknown
All right. And just kind of the practical economics when thinking about case making in this field. Well, I think both are necessary. And faith based organizations are, of course, very trusted on the moral issues and very able to talk, as the councilmember was saying earlier, they are the ones who are seeing people in need and people in distress, and so they can give a very good account of what the needs are and our obligations as fellow human beings to help in that situation.

00:40:27:19 - 00:41:02:19
Unknown
Right. But at the same time, they also have to make the economic case that this is good for the community. It's good for the city as a whole not to have people in distress, not to have people leaving the city because they can't afford it, not to having obviously homelessness or other unhoused, situations or unsupported situations. So you have to make both the moral case and the economic case that keeping faith based organizations in the community is a good economic argument, as well as a good moral argument.

00:41:02:21 - 00:41:26:19
Unknown
Having them, provide affordable housing, use their land for affordable housing is both a moral issue and makes all kinds of economic sense. And when we talk about let's talk about some of the kind of the case studies and models of actual development happening. Right. And we know that congregations have been doing faith based entities, houses of worship have been doing development for hundreds of years in different ways.

00:41:26:19 - 00:41:53:17
Unknown
But there's this notion of the movement and ecosystem is really kind of growing and emerging. Director, maybe I'll start with you. Are there some projects or examples of efforts around supporting development, by houses of worship that you're looking at and that you would suggest others look at, be it private investors, local governments, whoever it may be, to say, look, there's there are models and examples of how this is working and could work and could be potentially scaled.

00:41:53:21 - 00:42:12:19
Unknown
There are there are a few I mean, I don't know if I want to. There's one in particular, on Georgia Avenue. I'm a beacon of light. I mean, that's a good case study. It has, significant number of affordable units. It had a lot of challenges along the way. There was a lot of,

00:42:12:21 - 00:42:32:20
Unknown
Sort of fear from the congregation fits and starts, and I think. But they got through it, and I think that they had some planning issues. There was this historical berm who knew what a berm was, right? Like it was built on a berm, like a little hill. They wouldn't need to all of a sudden preserve this hill. So it was, you know, that's a good example of sticking to it.

00:42:32:20 - 00:43:01:05
Unknown
But it also is an example of being able to pivot right when things don't go as planned. But we have a number of, of organizations that have done some, some good, work, in terms of, affordable housing development on their, on their sites in Washington, D.C., you know, we call it that in the business of teas because, Reverend Joe Daniels will be on one of our future episodes of the podcast.

00:43:01:05 - 00:43:14:03
Unknown
And at Emory. And so, well, that's a good tease for for that episode coming up. I think there's one thing that's really important is when a faith based organization doesn't do this on a regular basis,

00:43:14:03 - 00:43:17:10
Unknown
you do have to build in some contingency,

00:43:17:10 - 00:43:22:13
Unknown
Right. Because this is not what they do. Right. And again so we go to who the partners are.

00:43:22:17 - 00:43:28:22
Unknown
And I think that when the federally qualified health centers, for example, started,

00:43:28:22 - 00:43:32:15
Unknown
there were, CDF eyes that started around them,

00:43:32:15 - 00:43:50:08
Unknown
in organizations that started out to lend to them, to put together the models for them. And I think that, you know, if we are moving towards this direction from where our faith based initiative kind of development, that should come about as well, so that there are models about how do you check the box?

00:43:50:14 - 00:44:13:02
Unknown
You know, there's different organizations that do this. I remember, like, for example, I spent some time in New York City and we did development around housing, affordable homeownership programs, and we also did, projects where new developers were the developers that were doing that work. And it was literally, this is what you do first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth.

00:44:13:02 - 00:44:41:00
Unknown
And that laying out that program does help to kind of, reduce challenges, right? Or unnecessary cost because eventualities happen that were unpredicted. So, that that's something that I think that is an opportunity to just kind of put that pool together and get that CDF, I that completely focuses on faith based initiatives and pull that money just for them.

00:44:41:02 - 00:44:41:12
Unknown
A

00:44:41:12 - 00:45:05:23
Unknown
cdfi that focuses on faith based work. I'll call some people that enterprise and see what they might be thinking about. The, right, right. Vicky, let me let me ask you this in terms of this notion of scaling and how policy may play a role in that. When we think about policy, are there ways that we ought to be thinking about how policy investments may help help us scale?

00:45:06:01 - 00:45:26:06
Unknown
And going to a different level in a way the director kind of alluded to. Are there ideas, things that you've seen out there as potential models, or ideas you have about how that might be helpful? So one problem that that we're really having with a lot of our faith based organizations in New York is that their their piece of land is pretty small.

00:45:26:08 - 00:45:49:23
Unknown
And so it's hard to develop that you don't you're not getting the economies of scale that you might get, you know, with a bigger site. So how can we combine, and say, you know, issue an RFP that says, look, I have four smallish churches in this neighborhood that want to use their land for affordable housing, come in and do all of them.

00:45:49:23 - 00:46:12:17
Unknown
Right. In a way that gives you those economies of scale that makes it more, much more economically economical to build. We've tried that with the city of New York, has tried that with some small lots, and irregular shaped lots. And it, you know, it needs more work to make the model work. But those are the kinds of things that we need to be thinking about.

00:46:12:19 - 00:46:41:16
Unknown
Right? We could also be thinking about could we use modular for some of the homes, that we would put on, you know, a church lot, can we, you know, have financing that allows just one closing rather than for in my example, those kinds of things just have to think point by point by point every step of the process and try to figure out how can we make this work for the kinds of land that we have available?

00:46:41:21 - 00:47:04:11
Unknown
Yep. And Council member want to come to that, that notion of thinking intentionally. In a way, Vicki's alluding to right and intentionality about thinking about all that it might take in Charlotte. Have you seen anything emerge starting to emerge in the conversations about, hey, the city government is making this investment. The city government is thinking about how to support faith community.

00:47:04:13 - 00:47:45:06
Unknown
Are you hearing conversations from the private sector or from houses of worship or denominational entities who are saying, you know what, we may want to get in on that because the city is putting in some skin in the game. Is that investment attracting other investment, or at least some conversations about potential additional investment? So I'm gonna say yes, but I am going to also ask you to give me some grace, because I have to highlight the fact that we have one of those case studies that I want the world to know about, and that is their homes and what their model is, where we are, where God is moving us.

00:47:45:10 - 00:48:21:17
Unknown
And it's through Caldwell Presbyterian. And you can always go to our website, faith and Housing at City of Charlotte. Dot gov to see others. That is how the conversation moves forward. When we first kicked off, the conversation is started with the summit. That summit happened. We had more than 300 religious institutions come together. We had more than 90 different types of institutions of faith come together, which was unheard of in the city of Charlotte.

00:48:21:19 - 00:48:55:18
Unknown
To have that many different faiths come into a room, to have a discussion. From the moment we started a conversation and community learned that the city of Charlotte not only was taking this commitment seriously by having a financial dialog line in our budget, specifically by faith and housing, but we really just it accelerated once we identified the partnership with enterprise, and the community saw that we were very serious to this commitment.

00:48:55:20 - 00:49:19:07
Unknown
I can be at the local store, I have been at the gas station. I have been at church community events outside of my own church, and people have come up and said, hey, my church has 15 acres. We would love to be a part of this conversation. How do we get here about it? Oh, I read an article where they were talking about this faith and housing.

00:49:19:07 - 00:49:45:06
Unknown
What is that about? I've had bishops and religious leaders reach out to me directly, or reach out to my office wanting to learn. How can they be a part of this conversation. So I recognize that we are truly blessed here in Charlotte because the faith community has basically, it feels like they've just been waiting on us to pull the trigger and for us to create a policy language and to show a show commitment.

00:49:45:08 - 00:50:07:14
Unknown
And now they are asking, how can they get involved? What can they do? My church has land. We want to be a part of this conversation. What's the next step? It has been nothing but support. I have not had one institution that I've reached out to or that my staff has reached out to, that has not shown interest and wanting to be a part of this conversation.

00:50:07:16 - 00:50:29:10
Unknown
It's been exciting to see local governments, the spread of local governments getting into this space with with investments here in Washington, D.C., Charlotte, New York has done it. Chattanooga, Tennessee, we're seeing more and more local governments looking at either passing laws that will help facilitate faith based development and or investing dollars, and that notion of money attracts money, right?

00:50:29:10 - 00:51:02:14
Unknown
Or policy change. And people saying, oh, wait, this makes sense. And so this the whole premise of radical commonsense, right, is that there's so much land, so much potential, here to have impact in community. Director Green, I want to go to you with this notion of as we look ahead and we've got a couple of minutes left here, but as we look ahead, is there something that's not happening in the policy space that you say, hey, if I was queen for a day or had the magic wand, this is one thing I would make sure, or these are 1 or 2 things that I would make sure are done at the local level

00:51:02:14 - 00:51:07:16
Unknown
across the country. That could really help open up successful faith based development. I

00:51:07:16 - 00:51:08:16
Unknown
think, further

00:51:08:16 - 00:51:48:09
Unknown
prioritization, of this work is really, really important. More, laws, more exceptions for the zoning and for the permitting. Also just a standalone pool of dollars just to work on, faith based properties and developments. Maybe it's a fund that is both private and public, that can be managed and worked on, so that, faith based can apply specifically for that fund of money, whether it be for pre-development costs.

00:51:48:09 - 00:52:09:03
Unknown
I think the pre-development cost is the hardest part of that. And then getting ready to apply for other, other funding sources, we kind of have the ornamental Newsome fund. It's not funded enough. It's a nonprofit fund. You would have to form a nonprofit in order to enter enter it. But something like that to help with pre-development costs and upfront cost.

00:52:09:05 - 00:52:37:19
Unknown
And again, what everything that enterprise is doing is really great with their faith based initiative connecting organizations and and with a faith based communities and pastors about how to lead, but also, organizational structure within the church, right about how to make this happen. Maybe it's not that one deacon, but it's a group. It's a board. It's, like what structure works and also the why.

00:52:37:21 - 00:53:03:07
Unknown
Right? The why is really important. So yes, we want to have, development on our site. But is the church dying or are you doing this to bring congregation back? Like, what is the new role after this. And I think that that's really important as we talk about the moral push, the economic push, the sustainability. Right. Because once the building is built, we want to make sure that it's preserved.

00:53:03:07 - 00:53:22:02
Unknown
It's maintained. Who are those people that are really going to be there ongoing, right, for the life of the project. So those are some of the things. Oh that's great. Appreciate that. Listen, I hope people who are listening will really kind of dig in to those real specific recommendations. And I know the good folks at Rooted Good, for example, are doing some analysis.

00:53:22:02 - 00:53:38:16
Unknown
They've gotten some funding to look at what might a national pool of capital look like, and the importance of public and private money going in. I know in the district, the district put in money, Wells Fargo put in dollars that really help support some of these. Council member, I'm going to ask you to do, as an elected official, someone we should never ask.

00:53:38:16 - 00:54:11:05
Unknown
But you've got seconds to give us the last word. If you were the queen for a day, if you had the magic wand, what would you say should be happening around the country to to further faith based development. I am Thanos, and it is streamlined. So any pathway for faith based housing, more funding for pre-development and technical assistance, clearer guidance and support for first time developers like the congregation, and actually policies that encourage partnerships rather than work in silo.

00:54:11:07 - 00:54:33:15
Unknown
Well, they say preachers always have three last words. So, Vicki, I'm actually going to give you the last word and say, if you had that, what would you do and recommend? I think the key thing is make as much as possible as of right, so that you know what you're getting into. You know that you're going to be able to build what you want to build, and you don't have a lot of process where risks are around every corner.

00:54:33:17 - 00:54:57:23
Unknown
Right? So I think those are key. Funding is is really important, not just pre-development, but all of the thinking, that a church needs to do about exactly the kinds of issues that the director was raising. Why are we doing this? What's our mission here? How what do we really need in order to be able to do? So I think all of those things are critically important, but let's make it easier.

00:54:58:01 - 00:55:22:13
Unknown
Let's make it more certain. That's Vicky being from the NYU Furman Center. I want to thank her. I want to thank Council member LaWanda Mayfield from the great city of Charlotte, North Carolina, and from right here in the nation's capital, director of Housing Colleen Green. Thank you all for being with us here today. Listen, if land is the opportunity and community is the purpose, policy is the pathway that connects them.

00:55:22:15 - 00:55:48:20
Unknown
Today's conversation shows that changing the rules isn't just about regulation. It's about expanding what's possible for communities that have long carried the vision, but often times lack the tools. Faith communities are proving that advocacy can be an extension of ministry shaping systems, so that compassion isn't limited to what happens inside the four walls. My friends, stay radical.

00:55:48:20 - 00:56:03:10
Unknown
join the growing movement around faith based development, please visit Enterprise community.org backslash FBI and sign up for our email list to get access to news, resources and opportunities from across the country.

00:56:03:10 - 00:56:30:02

01:00:04:02 - 01:01:13:11
Unknown
A certain way.

01:01:13:13 - 01:01:34:10
Unknown
With carbs. Like rice. You know all those potatoes they break down. Yeah. Like you know, I remember years ago talking. She gave up she, I think like bread, like 90 days. You know.

01:01:34:12 - 01:01:42:13
Unknown
But it it gives you clarity. Amanda. Yeah. She said once you got kind of food at home.

01:01:42:15 - 01:02:03:03
Unknown
That is, she said because I was drinking a Coke every day with the one. I don't think I'll go back to do you know. Well it was but three weeks. That's amazing. Right. Yeah. And.

01:02:03:05 - 01:02:10:21
Unknown
Y'all can hear us. Vicki and councilman. They taste good. That.

01:02:10:23 - 01:02:16:06
Unknown
They're horrible. Yeah. I don't drink coffee, though.

01:02:16:08 - 01:02:26:11
Unknown
Yeah. Rolling in the eyes. Yeah. That's, what, six, four.

01:02:26:13 - 01:02:53:05
Unknown
Oh, really? Yeah. That's interesting. Vicky, this, That. She can't hear us that well. Okay. Wow. And we're just in the frame. I'm sure my earpiece maybe they take in and there's, in the room. Okay. She was saying that you guys cannot hear Vicky well. Or Vicky saying she came. Vicky. Guys with Vicky being. Can you hear me?

01:02:53:05 - 01:03:15:16
Unknown
This is David Bowers. No, it's just that she says she can barely hear us, so Vicky can barely hear us. We can hear her. Vicky, can you talk for us? Since you two plagued the last gentleman, the body type is just. Thank you. Okay. What are you going to work to? See if that can bring up your volume with us so you can hear us better.

01:03:15:16 - 01:03:52:17
Unknown
Vicky. Sorry. Got to try. Okay. They can see the tape on that shoulder. Yeah. Yeah. You want that? Yeah, I can hear Vicky. Can we give Vicky closed caption? Okay. Yeah. That tape is going to be good because otherwise it'll pop out. Yeah. That's. I mean, they're saying you can take the tape off. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. Is good that I take on the light because I think they're saying it's visible for whatever reason.

01:03:52:18 - 01:04:17:05
Unknown
Oh my God. Oh. Is it. Sorry. Does that feel like. Oh, right right right right. Does that does this feel like it's going to come on now? Okay. All right. I mean, for now. Yeah. But I'm I start being, like, blasé. Yeah I know right? Right. It's okay. Can I get a mic? Check it right. So, while we're getting ready, Councilor Mayfield.

01:04:17:05 - 01:04:35:13
Unknown
Vicky being colleagues. It is going to come off. It needs to tape. She's going to need the tape. Thank you all so much for being with us today. We're going to get started in a couple of minutes. Just a little bit of housekeeping so the segments will run. I'm going to be reading from this really for you right now, Coleen.

01:04:35:13 - 01:05:04:07
Unknown
I'm going to be reading in a teleprompter. And then when I'm done with the teleprompter, I'm going to turn like this to you. When I want to throw a question to Vicky or Councilman Mayfield, what kind of pivot this way a little bit. If you and I are in conversation you just be looking at me. You're responding to something that they're saying it's okay for you to love me and kind of have that conversation where we, ladies, I will are questions that I sent you all.

01:05:04:07 - 01:05:30:08
Unknown
I will pull from some of those questions for sure, but I may not hit them all. I may also really try to respond and connect dots between some of the things that you all say. If one of you all says something and some one of you wants to kind of piggyback on that, please feel free. And I think, Vicky and Councilmember, since you all obviously aren't here.

01:05:30:10 - 01:05:51:21
Unknown
Just feel free to be, you know, kind of, you know, speak up and we will let you know, but. Oh, yeah. Sure. Jump in. And colleagues, I know you can jump in with somebody. We've got it broken into segments, but we're going to try to flow. We're going to do a couple of segments of questions, little, with all the opening and everything will run about 25 to 30 minutes.

01:05:51:23 - 01:06:05:03
Unknown
And then we'll pause for a, a read. I have to do for a segment that we'll cut in afterwards, and then we'll pick back up for the last half. Right.

01:06:05:05 - 01:06:13:17
Unknown
Say hi Prince. I know, that's right. Hi, Prince.

01:06:13:19 - 01:06:43:23
Unknown
You got a kindergartner back in the green room. He's seeing his mommy on TV. That's reading. Yeah, yeah, that is cool. Everyone say hi, Prince. Prince, since you're here. You're reading this 66. That's good. I got you, Vicki. We've never met, so I just want to say thank you again. Good to meet you. Certainly heard much about you and your work.

01:06:44:01 - 01:07:02:00
Unknown
We just had Curt Goodridge on here. From New York. He certainly was speaking highly of you. Before. And so great to meet you again. Thanks for plugging in from New York. And, Councilmember, I just saw you a couple of weeks down here. So I used that back home in North Carolina, down in Charlotte. That's my home district.

01:07:02:02 - 01:07:08:04
Unknown
Okay. Now let me just take a look at my.

01:07:08:05 - 01:07:33:13
Unknown
Yeah. So, oh. Oh. Now we can see you. Can you see me? I know right? We can see you. I need you a little. Yeah. Yes. Okay. We'll let the people in the in the booth. Council members may have some light go out. Let me. Yeah.

01:07:33:15 - 01:08:03:00
Unknown
Does that feel uncomfortable? No, ma'am. So much I appreciate. Didn't. Did I hear that you just released a paper you or your team on kind of dealing with development or faith based development? I was somewhere where somebody was. One of your colleagues from the farming center was talking about a paper you all just released. I saw.

01:08:03:02 - 01:08:29:10
Unknown
Got it. Okay. That'll be great, I appreciate it. Yeah. I was out at the, conference in Notre Dame, and one of your colleagues was on a panel and mentioned that, one other thing, ladies, I forgot to mention. So when I'm hitting questions and I'll direct, I'll call your name to, like, a question. So I'm like, so, Colleen, what do you think about that, that, councilman or would you please, you know Vicki so you'll know who I'm directing a question to.

01:08:29:15 - 01:08:45:00
Unknown
The thing on the will think in terms of what I've been saying to people. So this is our third episode we've taped today. Will take you on Miles is think in terms of what I call the 62nd answer. Right. Some of your answers may be shorter. Some of them you'll, you know, a little longer. And I'll kind of lean back.

01:08:45:02 - 01:09:03:00
Unknown
But think in terms of if you can, like, let me see if I can stick the landing on an answer within about 60s. And what you'll see is what I'll tend to do if you've. Hey, it's easier for you, Colin, because we're here. If you pay attention to my, body, I typically will be kind of sitting like this.

01:09:03:02 - 01:09:19:08
Unknown
If you see me kind of leaning like that. That's my nonverbal cues that you may want to land the play. Or sometimes what I may do is, particularly if I'm hearing in my ear, like, all right, time to kind of. We gotta make it. But, you'll hear me, say something to the effect there.

01:09:19:08 - 01:09:37:07
Unknown
Okay? Okay, that sounds good. And that'll be the other way, but generally it flows. We'll make it. We'll try to make it really conversational. And the like. So I'll try to do more of like the nonverbal. But if it gets to that point and I'm not like a hard stickler on it, but you know we can all speak long on some of these things.

01:09:37:07 - 01:09:58:03
Unknown
So sometimes I'll give a little body night and other. Anybody have any questions. I just want to say hi to Vicky. Been, I'm a subscriber to your NYU Furman Center newsletter. I get it on a weekly basis and have for years and years.

01:09:58:05 - 01:10:26:13
Unknown
Yeah. Your your level. Okay. Well, do you want, different size? You want. Oh, gosh. Oh, wow. Wow. Did you say 800th taste? Wow. Is you want to push this one a little bit, way so that, they're a little closer. Yeah. So that's, that's a tremendous value to the, I mean, that's part the whole point.

01:10:26:13 - 01:10:51:20
Unknown
Part of the point of this conversation today is to try to get the word out more and more about, what's been done, what's working, what working. How other how folks can learn from each other. Oh. States and localities and the like. And it's interesting is when we get into this conversation, you all hear me use the word policy, but I'm thinking in the broadest sense of ensuring.

01:10:51:20 - 01:11:15:08
Unknown
And so I'm just asking a little like what can. What can government do. So it may be legislation right. It could be investment of dollars, you know, appropriation of dollars. Yeah. Colleen. And your point is things like, you know, the office hours are on. So I'm thinking that, like, policy is a kind of a placeholder for, what government sorry for has gone over, in the broadest sense of the term.

01:11:15:10 - 01:11:22:12
Unknown
Council members look like you got some, like the light came back on. Yeah.

01:11:22:14 - 01:11:46:03
Unknown
Okay. Let's see. Is that I mean it difference. Okay. It definitely. Yeah. For sure. We can tell the difference. No, you cannot hear that. No. Can you guys say something? They're trying to test. They can't hear me. There. There they go. So that's nice. Check one.

01:11:46:05 - 01:12:19:10
Unknown
You can hear you see? You never hear you that I can hear. You could never go wrong. Okay. You know, let's go. Let's show this. Can. Yeah. Thank you. You know, I don't have any. It's easy to say next time I get invited. That's always the right answer, right? This is, next time I get invited. You know, I heard that, I mean, I don't have anything on the calendar for Charlotte, but when they hit one of those milestones, when the training wraps up, might be a natural time for us, for me to come now.

01:12:19:10 - 01:12:41:00
Unknown
And we've actually my colleague who you met, Robert Lucinda Kent, who was at that event in Alexandria, I think that might be a good time for us to come down, because usually when the trainings finish, they'll have the groups tested again. Can you give me a presentation of a few slides? Project concept is, and, we usually call like, a shark tank kind of thing.

01:12:41:00 - 01:12:57:19
Unknown
So if they do something like that, would love. That would be a great time for me to come down. Could kind of hear what the folks are presenting as their basic term and put my hair down. Will that help it in my. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you haven't been. Yeah, actually, let me take that. I can put my hand up.

01:12:57:19 - 01:13:23:12
Unknown
I was in Charlotte a year or two ago when the National Association of Real Estate Brokers, they had one of their conference narev was in down there, and I was, I came now, this first time I've been to Charlotte last year, I've been a a small head. All right. Okay. They're trying to. I think my head's too small to them.

01:13:25:23 - 01:13:29:04
Unknown
Out on the set.

01:13:29:06 - 01:13:37:05
Unknown
We got ballots out on this. That literally. They told me earlier they were like, lift your hand in my.

01:13:41:20 - 01:14:02:21
Unknown
So here we go. She put me in it. Yeah. Thanks for asking and. Yeah. Okay. Hey. Hey, Vicki. What's going on with the, So the legislation in New York that passed was the local, but not the state. Is that right? If I remember that right in New York, other other than.

01:14:02:23 - 01:14:09:11
Unknown
At the at the state level. Yeah. Okay.

01:14:09:13 - 01:14:14:09
Unknown
Yeah, yeah.

01:14:14:11 - 01:14:36:18
Unknown
Oh, I was, asking I was trying to remember which, mayor where you commissioner of HPD under was the de Blasio. I was right, yeah. It's, you, right. Right, right. Years. Government years. Right. Political years.

01:14:36:20 - 01:14:48:22
Unknown
The, does there's that legislation has some good prognosis is what's the prognosis for, passing aggressive. They kind of.

01:14:48:23 - 01:15:04:02
Unknown
Oh, yeah. Here is something that they get some I think some control over. Yeah.

01:15:04:04 - 01:15:16:19
Unknown
Right. Yeah. Or sniffle or something. That's it starts now right. So I'm like we had

01:15:16:21 - 01:15:28:11
Unknown
You know on our last night the a gentleman I could tell I was like, yeah, I can see if he's like. And I was like, oh, boy.

01:15:28:12 - 01:15:40:17
Unknown
It's about to hold at a key. I don't know how like like news reporters do it every day. I guess I get used to it, but body control? Yes, sir.

01:15:40:19 - 01:16:04:23
Unknown
All right. I'm getting ready to kick it off. Okay. Let me get my life together. Here, there. Do you mind if I look? I don't know, it's on the floor. All right, the water's out the way we're going.

01:16:05:01 - 01:16:17:07
Unknown
I've covered up my phone.

01:16:17:09 - 01:16:22:21
Unknown
Malcolm, you give me green light whenever you ready to go?

01:16:22:23 - 01:16:31:18
Unknown
Yeah. It had three, two, one countdown was helpful. By the way.

01:16:31:20 - 01:16:41:10
Unknown
Yeah, we thought we did this. That's amazing. Right. Wow. It's huge. Said.

01:16:41:12 - 01:16:43:23
Unknown
It.

01:16:44:01 - 01:20:25:20
Unknown
All right.

01:20:25:22 - 01:20:33:16
Unknown
Pathways. Ladies, welcome to the show. Thank you.

01:20:33:18 - 01:21:25:12
Unknown
So we're going to jump right into it today. We know that every housing project exists within a framework of rules. And those rules determine timelines, cost and even whether projects can happen at all. Councilmember Mayfield, I'd like to start with you. Why is policy such a decisive factor in helping us think about how we can scale faith based development?

01:21:25:14 - 01:21:57:11
Unknown
Thanks. Council member. And Vicky, I want to ask you, you had the benefit of looking at things locally in New York, but also nationally. When you think about why policy is such a decisive factor in scaling faith based development, what would you add to that piece?

01:21:57:13 - 01:22:22:20
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. And Colleen, you serving as a director of the Department of Housing. Let me ask you about barriers. Councilmember Mayfield talked about barriers and your experience, and you've been both on kind of multiple sides in government and outside of government. What are some of those common barriers that you see when houses of worship are trying to approach doing development, and how might you suggested them and things that they might want to look out for and get prepared for?

01:22:22:22 - 01:22:44:19
Unknown
Well, I think it's a very confusing process for the most part. And if you don't have experience in doing development, it's there's a multilayered multifaceted to it. And so having a good partner and a good development consultant, someone that you trust is really important in doing that. The other barriers just kind of just general understanding of how it's done.

01:22:44:19 - 01:23:16:05
Unknown
And the other two representatives on this, podcast have said it's timing. Right? So it's definitely you have to be in it for the long haul. It's not microwavable. Right. So understanding that and having commitment to the process and understanding the steps of the process is really important. It Council member, Director Green talked about, this notion of it's not microwavable and this notion of how do we prepare houses of worship for this work.

01:23:16:07 - 01:24:57:23
Unknown
And so in the city of Charlotte, you want to share a little bit about what you all are doing to help equip and prepare congregations, for this work, the kind of investment that the city is making.

01:24:58:00 - 01:25:16:13
Unknown
In Council. Councilmember, let me let me stay with you for a minute, asking the question when you were leading that charge in the city of Charlotte to try to get this kind of investment by the city. Right. Did you get any sort of pushback, either within city government or even outside of city government? And how did you make that case and be part of this?

01:25:16:15 - 01:27:07:20
Unknown
You know, this conversation that we're having here in the podcast, we're really thinking about the movement, how this movement has grown and how we can help, case make and tell the story in such a way that we can continue to build this movement for impact. When we talk about faith based movement writ large. So in the city of Charlotte, how did you make that case to get the, city to make the investment that you just described?

01:27:07:22 - 01:27:26:20
Unknown
Vicky, we know there's a lot of conversation about housing affordability and the challenges, of meeting the housing needs in our country and that a lot of the work is going to have to take place at the state and local level. Right? We need support the federal government, obviously, but a lot of things are happening at state, local level.

01:27:26:20 - 01:28:30:01
Unknown
When we think about faith based development and some of the barriers that we've talked about. Right. Can you talk a little bit about what you see in you and your team, in your research about some of the innovative approaches around the country, at the state or local level to, removing or reducing some of those barriers to faith based development?

01:28:30:03 - 01:29:35:13
Unknown
And have you seen any trends you and your team and what you've seen, what is happening at state, local level? What has been the key to some of the success of getting those, policies enacted in the past? Have you seen some common trends or things about what, what local folks have done to to get those things on the books?

01:29:35:15 - 01:30:13:00
Unknown
Director green, I want to pick up on that this notion of the win win here in Washington, DC, your department has really been at the forefront, we think, in the region in terms of investments of dollars, making yourself available in terms of office hours and also a creative approach around putting like points in RFP to say a little bit about and thinking to an audience of like, the, peers around the country who maybe hopefully listening, watching, this notion of why the District of Columbia decided to make this kind of investment in faith based development and on kind of multiple forms.

01:30:13:02 - 01:30:35:01
Unknown
Well, I think the the main reason is the push for affordable housing. Right. And when churches have land that is under utilized or not used, then that's a great opportunity to create affordable housing, right? They already own the land. If they're partners in the development, then it doesn't. You don't have to do an acquisition for the land costs making that go up.

01:30:35:06 - 01:31:00:15
Unknown
So it's a great opportunity again, to create affordable housing. I think that that's one of the things I think what, Vicky Bean has said about sustaining the community. Right. You can't really have successful affordable housing without having good community, right. And good neighbors. And, having a church that's an anchor, for affordable housing does incentivize community development.

01:31:00:17 - 01:31:19:05
Unknown
And the commitment that a church can have to developing anything around that housing. Right. So whether you need daycare with that, because, you have a, incentivized population already there, that's part of the church community or that's acting around the community. They can also do that if they need a grocery store. They can also do that.

01:31:19:05 - 01:31:45:13
Unknown
I know that, in New York, there was a lot of community development corporations that were started by churches signifying their commitment to not only doing housing, but increasing the benefits that are coming to their community. So that's another reason why it you get, I want to say, more bang for your buck because you're doing something in a really consolidated, comprehensive way.

01:31:45:14 - 01:34:15:11
Unknown
So you're touching a lot of the points as well as saving that anchor, that the church always is. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. You you said something really critical director, about the notion of connecting this to even kind of the goals that a local jurisdiction may have. Right. And I wonder, council member, your work in Charlotte, were there some particular goals that the city had around, you know, producing x number of new affordable housing, opportunities or units, that you all were able to connect this work around faith based development to.

01:34:15:13 - 01:34:35:12
Unknown
You know, Vicky, I want to pick up on where the councilman was there in terms of and this notion of there's been obviously this growing movement. You alluded to it earlier, Vicky, around kind of yes. In God's backyard. They give me as if they pass legislation around the country, say a little bit, Vicky, about the land use component, the zoning component.

01:34:35:12 - 01:36:20:20
Unknown
And now, from a policy point, elected officials, government officials can think about land use and how to activate space on land, in a way that can further public policy goals and aims around like the council was talking about the concentration of poverty, making sure people, have more access to amenities, higher opportunity areas in their life. So anything that we like to speak to on that.

01:36:20:22 - 01:36:49:18
Unknown
We can have. Yeah. Go ahead. Councilman.

01:36:49:20 - 01:37:14:06
Unknown
Councilmember, you talked about the timelines. I like to refer to it as the HIV one. Right? Right. So I'm I'm curious if any of you all would like to say a word more about the importance of that, the timeline, kind of what we can do, what jurisdictions can do, who may be considering this to expedite the process. And how important that is, to address the timelines.

01:37:14:08 - 01:37:34:12
Unknown
All right. Absolutely. From and I think what I understand from the history of DC zoning laws, I think the we had a 1954 laws are still on the book. And then we had a change in 2016, and there's some still 1954 laws that we're having to deal with. So I think there's an opportunity there to do some BS in DC as of.

01:37:34:12 - 01:38:08:07
Unknown
Right, as well as, you know, the permit process. Right. That's also very costly. And if you for for developments that include or that are faith based, maybe figuring out a fast track for that because there's not, you know, it should not be over complicated on, on, on a church site. Right. So, I think that that's also another opportunity as well as updating the zoning laws as of right around faith based communities and doing exemptions.

01:38:08:09 - 01:38:32:09
Unknown
That makes sense. And that fit, again, the model for that congregation. So I think that one of the things that's really important that if you are serving your congregation, if you have seniors or you have families and things like that, that's a great lane to stay in because you have, you know, you're you're set with the population, a market to fill the units.

01:38:32:09 - 01:38:55:05
Unknown
And if you can sort of match that as a rationale for fast tracking a project, that that makes all the sense in the world. But yeah, I agree with both of these points. Yep. And Vicky, I want to ask you, wearing both your research hat and also as, leader, New York City, right. Housing Department as well.

01:38:55:09 - 01:40:29:06
Unknown
Your experiences, has there been push back to the notion of granting houses of worship, kind of the act of, permitting faster permitting approvals or by right, mean, has there been any sort of pushback out there? And again, thinking about people who may be listening to this saying, oh, you know what, we think we want to try to do that in our jurisdiction and to hear, hear the arguments that you need to be prepared to address, if you're going to try to posit that as something that ought to be done in your jurisdiction.

01:40:29:08 - 01:40:39:23
Unknown
The.

01:40:40:01 - 01:40:42:17
Unknown
You know.

01:40:42:19 - 01:41:09:04
Unknown
Go directly. Go ahead. I also think that, as I'm sitting here listening, I think that as we try to create homeownership opportunities, faith based land is a great way to do that, because, again, there's congregations in place with families that you can also get them homeowner education and buyers education and prepare them, for, the homes that would be built on the land, giving them opportunity to buy affordable homes.

01:41:09:04 - 01:41:32:21
Unknown
And they stay within that congregation and community. So I think that's also a great opportunity for exemption as cities think about if you're building homeownership and, you know, I think, you know, duplex with, owner's duplex with rental, you know, on it so that I think, that's a really great opportunity as well. So you become a homeowner or a landlord and you also create affordable units above it.

01:41:33:01 - 01:41:56:23
Unknown
That's a great model for our faith based land to stay directly with you for a minute. And council member Vicky, I'm going to come to you on this as well. So I I've seen you in action in terms of creativity and thinking innovatively about how to engage faith communities. What I mean by that is in some of the meetings we've been in with you and your team, with office hours, where you've challenged folks in those meetings in a good way.

01:41:56:23 - 01:42:21:05
Unknown
Right. Hey, have you thought about this? You created. So what you're speaking to also, is this notion of localities trying to be creative. Hey, we've got a homeownership goal. Hey, we've got these folks over here at land. Let's think about how we might activate. Yeah. Can you say a word about how important it is for jurisdictions, states, local governments and others in the ecosystem to be creative, to be innovative?

01:42:21:05 - 01:42:44:08
Unknown
And what that might actually lead to kind of a benefit or impact that could come from. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think thinking outside the box is really important, particularly as costs are rising and everything is so much expensive. Utility costs are going up, just everything is expensive and it's so hard to, keep costs down because the churches own the land.

01:42:44:08 - 01:43:11:16
Unknown
And that land cost is kind of something that you can take out of the equation, because I've owned the land for so long, even using innovative construction types that you haven't used before, whether you're doing modular or, you know, just to make things faster, I mean, this is a real opportunity, that churches have to do things that are innovative to kind of test the waters and, and try different models of things.

01:43:11:16 - 01:43:34:10
Unknown
And, and rental is not always it. Right. Like home ownership. And and if you need to do a, homeowner's association fee to keep, you know, the church going and, and keep it, you know, alive and in the community there's there's opportunity there. So just thinking of different rental streams or income streams that can happen, as you're creating a development, doesn't all have it could be mixed use.

01:43:34:16 - 01:44:01:17
Unknown
It can be, homeownership rental or a combination of rental, homeownership, really kind of focusing on what's needed in that community or what you're willing to do. And what is the sort of planning goals of that community or the the goals of the locality and what how you can contribute? One of the things that, we try to do in DC is have access to affordable housing and high income areas, right?

01:44:01:19 - 01:44:29:06
Unknown
There's a lot of churches in high income areas that have not done anything with their land, and their congregations are also maybe not as strong as they once were. And that that's also an opportunity. So yeah, definitely trying to think out the box creatively in every aspect is a great opportunity. Yeah, it's interesting. I always say to people, you know, suburban, urban, rural, red state, blue state, purple state, you have houses of worship in every part of the country, right?

01:44:29:06 - 01:46:45:05
Unknown
Poor areas, high opportunity, wealthier areas, everything in between. Council Member Mayfield, you want to say a word about the the importance of local government leaders being creative and innovative. When you're leaning into this space around faith based development. And what could potentially the kind of impact that could come from that?

01:46:45:07 - 01:48:04:16
Unknown
Council member appreciate that. Listen, we've been having a great conversation so far talking about policy at a systems level, but change doesn't happen without people stepping in to.

01:48:04:18 - 01:48:15:00
Unknown
Take fix. Vicky and Councilmember Murphy, all the ones that we got to take on me, on the big head,

01:48:15:02 - 01:48:19:21
Unknown
No, no, actually.

01:48:19:23 - 01:48:44:01
Unknown
Oh. Oh, yeah. We got we're going to get into that. I think that's funny. I literally have your name next to that question as the person who kicked that to. So on my note. So I'm literally coming to you. That's funny you say that. Looks like you come out of this. Great. I'm coming your way. And you are still.

01:48:44:02 - 01:48:48:07
Unknown
Thinking.

01:48:48:09 - 01:48:57:03
Unknown
Tia or Malcolm, can you confirm if this is, You can. Are you seeing this or is it hidden? Now?

01:48:57:05 - 01:49:32:04
Unknown
By what? Can you see the tape now? Are we good? Sit up a little bit. Leaning like this. Look, this. Okay. Okay. Thank you for sharing. This is a you know, what's what you say roll. I go into, like, you know, earnest and. Right. That's right. Earnest. That's funny.

01:49:32:06 - 01:49:40:11
Unknown
Okay. About to do with time. About to go. Okay. You got to give me the three. Two.

01:49:40:13 - 01:50:27:01
Unknown
Just a heads up. Three minutes left on camera. One and two. As you can see, faith communities can do more than just work within the rules. They can help rewrite them. And enterprises excited to partner with Silver Spring United Methodist Church to develop new homes. Now, let's jump back into our discussion. Council member Mayfield, why are faith leaders uniquely positioned to influence housing policy?

01:50:27:03 - 01:50:48:12
Unknown
And let me ask you, Vicki, let me ask you this again, where in kind of multiple hats, one of the things we've heard over the years and you hear talk about, which is real, the declining numbers of folks who attend houses of worship, right. You hear about kind of, maybe the declining strength of the organized church.

01:50:48:12 - 01:51:16:14
Unknown
And I always say, I'm saying church in quotes to speak to any faith community, right? Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever it may be for us. So a question for you, Vicky, is this notion of houses of worship as advocates leaning in on the housing policy? How are they received? Right. In your experience, do they bring Councilor Mayfield, talk about the clout they bring, do you think that carries, true.

01:51:16:14 - 01:51:55:06
Unknown
Right across the country in all kind of communities? You know? Yes. No. Maybe so. And if not so much, are there things that faith communities, can do more to be effective?

01:51:55:07 - 01:52:44:14
Unknown
Right.

01:52:44:16 - 01:52:51:14
Unknown
Director Green, let me ask you a question about the faith community being advocates for housing policy when they're not working on their

01:52:51:14 - 01:52:52:17
Unknown
specific project.

01:52:52:17 - 01:53:24:01
Unknown
How important is it for the faith community to be down at, you know, City Hall, so to speak, pushing for more for housing, affordable housing when it's not just them coming in for their specific project? Well, I think it's really important because I think that what one, faith based organization does affects the other. Right? So I think that being united and voice about, this movement to have affordable housing development on their sites and other issues that affect them is really important.

01:53:24:01 - 01:53:48:06
Unknown
And, you know, when, when there's it's it's like putting a fist together. They're more powerful together. So advocating on a number of issues is important. And I think faith based, communities, pastors, reverends, leaders of the church are really trusted voices. When they speak, they come from a moral underpinning. And people can't dispute that. Like, what are their what is their motivation?

01:53:48:06 - 01:54:23:01
Unknown
It's to generally help. I mean, that's what they're there for. And for that reason, they're trusted and they should advocate. I do want to say that, one of the things as government is putting policy together, it's also important for investors, to to come in to play and partner with that. Right. Like so lenders and investors also should get used to having faith based clients and figuring out what that underwriting should be, because that helps the policy along as well, and how they would be willing to invest.

01:54:23:01 - 01:54:46:08
Unknown
And what a, a faith based development needs to look like and make that really clear and plain, because sometimes it's not clear what, a lender or investor would be comfortable with from a faith based position. And I think that it would be great if, like we have community development organizations and banks, they should have a faith based initiative organization where they're looking for this product.

01:54:46:08 - 01:55:09:00
Unknown
This is really a movement and a product to create housing, whether it's mixed income, affordable housing, what have you really, you know, financial institutions should create a department. Just focus on that. You know, and Colleen, help people understand too. When we talk about faith based development, typically the house of worship is going to have an established development partner.

01:55:09:05 - 01:55:30:23
Unknown
And when they come in like that, from an underwriting standpoint, from an investment standpoint, how much is government looking at or private investor looking at the congregation versus looking at the development partner, or is it kind of a 5050? We're looking at all the above. We're like, we're looking at both. Yeah, right. Because you have to have a development partner that has the expertise has and know how.

01:55:30:23 - 01:55:51:16
Unknown
And in some cases you might want their guarantee on it depending on how involved that they are. And also the congregation, I think the congregation, the church, the board should have a committee if they don't have a CDC set aside or development corporation set aside to do this, that is focused on just this, right, so that they're committed for the long haul.

01:55:51:16 - 01:56:14:10
Unknown
They're meeting on a regular basis about what the timeline is, how this happens, that they're getting educated, they go into conferences, they're meeting on a regular basis with their development team, the consultants and everybody involved, and they're advocating all the time with, the policy as a politicians to make sure, because there's a capital stack that has to be built as well.

01:56:14:11 - 01:56:36:06
Unknown
Right? It's not just the financing that comes from the lender, but in order to create affordability, you may have to have a slug of money that comes from council member. Right. You may have to have a slug of money that comes from the government. So that advocacy also needs to be part of that plan. Yeah. The the beloved capital stack, the beloved capital stack.

01:56:36:06 - 01:57:03:15
Unknown
So I want to ask, Vicki, you a question on the moral side. And council member, use something in terms of like the building or capacity director talked about in terms of these associated entities with the house of worship. So, Council Member, I'm going to actually start with you. How important is it for, when the government has looked at building the capacity of these congregations, the notion of we want to make sure we support them in their efforts.

01:57:03:15 - 01:57:30:07
Unknown
If they're trying to create community development corporations or affiliated entities that can be partners in development. What's been the approach in Charlotte with that? So we really rely on our faith institutions to lead that particular conversation, because all congregations are not the same. Some have different levels of leadership. Some of the leadership is within that church home, some we think of the Catholic diocese.

01:57:30:09 - 01:58:02:05
Unknown
You need to have mode. There are multiple levels of conversations before you can decide to do anything with that land. So the CDC, the city of Charlotte, has the housing and neighborhood Services Department, and we have our housing and Neighborhood Services staff and director of housing. We are there to assist them with their application for the CDC, but they are the ones who are leading the conversation of creating what they believe that the congregation, as well as the community.

01:58:02:07 - 01:58:27:00
Unknown
So our support will also help you identify the survey that you need to distribute amongst the congregation, as well as the neighborhood to identify the support and to help you learn how to interview, to create that board for the CDC, because you need a strong board that has the relationships and the connections, because, again, that capital stack can be a barrier.

01:58:27:02 - 01:59:01:10
Unknown
So you need those banking executives to be a part of your internal conversations. And have their buy in to help get into certain roles. But we really attempt to walk side by side with our community versus government coming in because we've done that. We've done that for decades. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't. We're really being conscious and intentional to walk alongside our religious institutions in order for them to tell us, what is it that you need, and how can we help fill that gap?

01:59:01:12 - 01:59:31:13
Unknown
Yeah. Critical piece. Vicky, I want to ask you about the moral case vis-a-vis the economic case. Right. So when conc when we think about the notion of faith based development, growing this industry, growing this ecosystem, how important is it? The director talked about kind of the moral underpinnings of this. How important is it for the moral case to be made for investing in kind of faith based development versus the the economics of it?

01:59:31:13 - 02:00:03:22
Unknown
All right. And just kind of the practical economics when thinking about case making in this field. Well, I think both are necessary. And faith based organizations are, of course, very trusted on the moral issues and very able to talk, as the councilmember was saying earlier, they are the ones who are seeing people in need and people in distress, and so they can give a very good account of what the needs are and our obligations as fellow human beings to help in that situation.

02:00:03:22 - 02:00:38:22
Unknown
Right. But at the same time, they also have to make the economic case that this is good for the community. It's good for the city as a whole not to have people in distress, not to have people leaving the city because they can't afford it, not to having obviously homelessness or other unhoused, situations or unsupported situations. So you have to make both the moral case and the economic case that keeping faith based organizations in the community is a good economic argument, as well as a good moral argument.

02:00:39:00 - 02:01:02:22
Unknown
Having them, provide affordable housing, use their land for affordable housing is both a moral issue and makes all kinds of economic sense. And when we talk about let's talk about some of the kind of the case studies and models of actual development happening. Right. And we know that congregations have been doing faith based entities, houses of worship have been doing development for hundreds of years in different ways.

02:01:02:22 - 02:01:29:22
Unknown
But there's this notion of the movement and ecosystem is really kind of growing and emerging. Director, maybe I'll start with you. Are there some projects or examples of efforts around supporting development, by houses of worship that you're looking at and that you would suggest others look at, be it private investors, local governments, whoever it may be, to say, look, there's there are models and examples of how this is working and could work and could be potentially scaled.

02:01:30:00 - 02:01:48:22
Unknown
There are there are a few I mean, I don't know if I want to. There's one in particular, on Georgia Avenue. I'm a beacon of light. I mean, that's a good case study. It has, significant number of affordable units. It had a lot of challenges along the way. There was a lot of,

02:01:49:00 - 02:02:08:23
Unknown
Sort of fear from the congregation fits and starts, and I think. But they got through it, and I think that they had some planning issues. There was this historical berm who knew what a berm was, right? Like it was built on a berm, like a little hill. They wouldn't need to all of a sudden preserve this hill. So it was, you know, that's a good example of sticking to it.

02:02:08:23 - 02:02:37:08
Unknown
But it also is an example of being able to pivot right when things don't go as planned. But we have a number of, of organizations that have done some, some good, work, in terms of, affordable housing development on their, on their sites in Washington, D.C., you know, we call it that in the business of teas because, Reverend Joe Daniels will be on one of our future episodes of the podcast.

02:02:37:08 - 02:02:58:16
Unknown
And at Emory. And so, well, that's a good tease for for that episode coming up. I think there's one thing that's really important is when a faith based organization doesn't do this on a regular basis, you do have to build in some contingency. Right. Because this is not what they do. Right. And again so we go to who the partners are.

02:02:58:20 - 02:03:26:11
Unknown
And I think that when the federally qualified health centers, for example, started, there were CDF eyes that started around them in organizations that started out to lend to them, to put together the models for them. And I think that, you know, if we are moving towards this direction from where our faith based initiative kind of development, that should come about as well, so that there are models about how do you check the box?

02:03:26:17 - 02:03:49:05
Unknown
You know, there's different organizations that do this. I remember, like, for example, I spent some time in New York City and we did development around housing, affordable homeownership programs, and we also did, projects where new developers were the developers that were doing that work. And it was literally, this is what you do first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth.

02:03:49:05 - 02:04:17:03
Unknown
And that laying out that program does help to kind of, reduce challenges, right? Or unnecessary cost because eventualities happen that were unpredicted. So, that that's something that I think that is an opportunity to just kind of put that pool together and get that CDF, I that completely focuses on faith based initiatives and pull that money just for them.

02:04:17:05 - 02:04:42:02
Unknown
A cdfi that focuses on faith based work. I'll call some people that enterprise and see what they might be thinking about. The, right, right. Vicky, let me let me ask you this in terms of this notion of scaling and how policy may play a role in that. When we think about policy, are there ways that we ought to be thinking about how policy investments may help help us scale?

02:04:42:04 - 02:05:02:09
Unknown
And going to a different level in a way the director kind of alluded to. Are there ideas, things that you've seen out there as potential models, or ideas you have about how that might be helpful? So one problem that that we're really having with a lot of our faith based organizations in New York is that their their piece of land is pretty small.

02:05:02:11 - 02:05:26:02
Unknown
And so it's hard to develop that you don't you're not getting the economies of scale that you might get, you know, with a bigger site. So how can we combine, and say, you know, issue an RFP that says, look, I have four smallish churches in this neighborhood that want to use their land for affordable housing, come in and do all of them.

02:05:26:02 - 02:05:48:20
Unknown
Right. In a way that gives you those economies of scale that makes it more, much more economically economical to build. We've tried that with the city of New York, has tried that with some small lots, and irregular shaped lots. And it, you know, it needs more work to make the model work. But those are the kinds of things that we need to be thinking about.

02:05:48:22 - 02:06:17:19
Unknown
Right? We could also be thinking about could we use modular for some of the homes, that we would put on, you know, a church lot, can we, you know, have financing that allows just one closing rather than for in my example, those kinds of things just have to think point by point by point every step of the process and try to figure out how can we make this work for the kinds of land that we have available?

02:06:18:00 - 02:06:40:14
Unknown
Yep. And Council member want to come to that, that notion of thinking intentionally. In a way, Vicki's alluding to right and intentionality about thinking about all that it might take in Charlotte. Have you seen anything emerge starting to emerge in the conversations about, hey, the city government is making this investment. The city government is thinking about how to support faith community.

02:06:40:16 - 02:07:21:09
Unknown
Are you hearing conversations from the private sector or from houses of worship or denominational entities who are saying, you know what, we may want to get in on that because the city is putting in some skin in the game. Is that investment attracting other investment, or at least some conversations about potential additional investment? So I'm gonna say yes, but I am going to also ask you to give me some grace, because I have to highlight the fact that we have one of those case studies that I want the world to know about, and that is their homes and what their model is, where we are, where God is moving us.

02:07:21:13 - 02:07:57:20
Unknown
And it's through Caldwell Presbyterian. And you can always go to our website, faith and Housing at City of Charlotte. Dot gov to see others. That is how the conversation moves forward. When we first kicked off, the conversation is started with the summit. That summit happened. We had more than 300 religious institutions come together. We had more than 90 different types of institutions of faith come together, which was unheard of in the city of Charlotte.

02:07:57:22 - 02:08:31:21
Unknown
To have that many different faiths come into a room, to have a discussion. From the moment we started a conversation and community learned that the city of Charlotte not only was taking this commitment seriously by having a financial dialog line in our budget, specifically by faith and housing, but we really just it accelerated once we identified the partnership with enterprise, and the community saw that we were very serious to this commitment.

02:08:31:23 - 02:08:55:10
Unknown
I can be at the local store, I have been at the gas station. I have been at church community events outside of my own church, and people have come up and said, hey, my church has 15 acres. We would love to be a part of this conversation. How do we get here about it? Oh, I read an article where they were talking about this faith and housing.

02:08:55:10 - 02:09:21:09
Unknown
What is that about? I've had bishops and religious leaders reach out to me directly, or reach out to my office wanting to learn. How can they be a part of this conversation. So I recognize that we are truly blessed here in Charlotte because the faith community has basically, it feels like they've just been waiting on us to pull the trigger and for us to create a policy language and to show a show commitment.

02:09:21:11 - 02:09:43:17
Unknown
And now they are asking, how can they get involved? What can they do? My church has land. We want to be a part of this conversation. What's the next step? It has been nothing but support. I have not had one institution that I've reached out to or that my staff has reached out to, that has not shown interest and wanting to be a part of this conversation.

02:09:43:19 - 02:10:05:13
Unknown
It's been exciting to see local governments, the spread of local governments getting into this space with with investments here in Washington, D.C., Charlotte, New York has done it. Chattanooga, Tennessee, we're seeing more and more local governments looking at either passing laws that will help facilitate faith based development and or investing dollars, and that notion of money attracts money, right?

02:10:05:13 - 02:10:38:17
Unknown
Or policy change. And people saying, oh, wait, this makes sense. And so this the whole premise of radical commonsense, right, is that there's so much land, so much potential, here to have impact in community. Director Green, I want to go to you with this notion of as we look ahead and we've got a couple of minutes left here, but as we look ahead, is there something that's not happening in the policy space that you say, hey, if I was queen for a day or had the magic wand, this is one thing I would make sure, or these are 1 or 2 things that I would make sure are done at the local level

02:10:38:17 - 02:10:43:19
Unknown
across the country. That could really help open up successful faith based development. I

02:10:43:19 - 02:11:24:12
Unknown
think, further prioritization, of this work is really, really important. More, laws, more exceptions for the zoning and for the permitting. Also just a standalone pool of dollars just to work on, faith based properties and developments. Maybe it's a fund that is both private and public. That can be managed and worked on, so that, faith based can apply specifically for that fund of money, whether it be for pre-development costs.

02:11:24:12 - 02:12:04:15
Unknown
I think the pre-development cost is the hardest part of that. And then getting ready to apply for other, other funding sources, we kind of have the ornamental Newsome fund. It's not funded enough. It's a nonprofit fund. You'd have to form a nonprofit in order to enter enter it. But something like that to help with pre-development costs and upfront cost and again, what everything that enterprise is doing is really great with their faith based initiative connecting organizations and and with, faith based communities and pastors about how to lead, but also, organizational structure within the church, right, about how to make this happen.

02:12:04:17 - 02:12:28:09
Unknown
Maybe it's not that one deacon, but it's a group. It's a board. It's, like what structure works and also the why. Right. The why is really important. So yes, we want to have, development on our site. But is the church dying or are you doing this to bring congregation back? Like, what is the new role after this.

02:12:28:09 - 02:12:47:20
Unknown
And I think that that's really important as we talk about the moral push, the economic push, the sustainability. Right. Because once the building is built, we want to make sure that it's preserved. It's maintained. Who are those people that are really going to be there on going right for the life of the project? So those are some of the things.

02:12:47:23 - 02:13:05:16
Unknown
Oh that's great. Appreciate that list. And I hope people who are listening will really kind of dig into those real specific recommendations. And I know the good folks that are rooted good, for example, are doing some analysis. They've gotten some funding to look at what might a national pool of capital look like and the importance of public and private money going in.

02:13:05:16 - 02:13:47:09
Unknown
I know in the district, the district put in money, Wells Fargo put in dollars that might help support some of these. Councilmember, I'm going to ask you to do, as an elected official, someone we should never ask. But you've got seconds to give us the last word. If you were the queen for a day, if you had the magic wand, what would you say should be happening around the country to to further faith based development.

02:13:47:11 - 02:14:35:18
Unknown
Well, they say preachers always have three last words. So, Vicki, I'm actually going to give you the last word and say, if you had that, what would you do and recommend?

02:14:35:20 - 02:15:43:12
Unknown
That's Vicki being from the NYU Furman Center. I want to thank her. I want to thank Council member LaWanda Mayfield from the great city of Charlotte, North Carolina, and from right here in the nation's capital, director of Housing Colleen Green. Thank you all for being with us here today. Listen, if land is the opportunity and community is the purpose, policy.

02:15:43:14 - 02:15:46:06
Unknown
Oh.

02:15:46:08 - 02:16:10:17
Unknown
The whole episode from the top. You said, hey, listen, you better talk to my union rep. Doc. Hahahahaha! We getting overtime for that. Thank you ladies. Vicki and council member and obviously Colleen here. Thank you all so much. Thank you so much. Council member Vicki, before you all log off, we want to get a, I think a picture that has you all in the background.

02:16:10:17 - 02:16:29:04
Unknown
It is this. Oh. We good? We lead in. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, smile, smile. Okay. Perfect. Perfect. Thank you, Vicki and Councilman. Thank you all so much. Be well. Thank you. Nice meeting you.

02:16:29:06 - 02:17:05:01
Unknown
Yeah. Thank you. Absolutely. We're going to keep this train rolling together. Come on. Take care now. Oh hey there. Frick you. Thank you. Hi. Say hi. Hey, Prince. How did mommy do? Okay. Good. That's good. Yeah. Like I mentioned, as good for you watching me. Yeah, I do a good job. And I also like to. Right know.

02:17:05:03 - 02:17:10:00
Unknown
I think he wants to know. She should turn off her mic and camera. You can. You can sign off.